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AUXLANG  January 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG January 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Readability of Interlingua

From:

Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:43:54 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (214 lines)

Christer Loernemark wrote quoting me /first paragraph deleted:/
 
>
>Kjell Rehnstr=F6m wrote:
>>Some years ago I was working together with a guy from Colombia...
>>/deleted text:/
 
>Christer wrote:
>I would really much want to see research results on the comprehensibility
>of Interlingua to speakers of Romance languages, correlated with social and
>educational status. As for the spontaneous attitudes to an Interlingua text
>one could, hypothetically, see two kinds of extreme reactions to
>Interlingua by e.g. a native speaker of Spanish, like endpoints on a scale:
>a) "Great, I can understand it without difficulty. What a nice IAL!"
>b) "Yuck, that looks almost like my mother tongue, but it's somewhat
>deformed, yes terribly mutilated."
>[No offense intended by my wording.]
>
Kjell R.: This is the attitude you will meat any time you have a meating of
similar mutually comprehensible languages. There is of course no guarantee
against prejudice...
 
A not too bold guess should be that the better your education is, the
better you will understand Interlingua.
 
Christer:
>(Of course one could also measure informed attitudes, i.e. the attitudes
>the subject has after having been informed to a certain extent (how much?)
>about Interlingua and other planned languages. But isn't one of the main
>points of a language intended for prima vista reading that the language
>should be transparent enough not to need any additional clarification?)
>
>Exactly how much a _typical_ native speaker of Spanish (if such a person
>exists) would understand of an Interlingua text, and what attitude he would
>have towards Interlingua, is yet unknown. What we have so far is anecdotal
>evidence from some Interlinguaists, and a few statements from individual
>Romance speakers saying they find it hard to read.
>
Kjell R.: Obviously you will have to hire a translator if you want to
communicate with a large Spanish-speaking audience. If you have the
possibility to reach the audience then you will also have the money to have
your message translated. But Interlingua could well be used by the little
organization with the lean budget.
 
If you make a bad original treated by a bad translator the reaction may
well be the same: This text is hard to read, /throwing it in the trash/.
 
=46or what it is worth I have met people were _against constructed languages=
_
but could understand what was said in Interlingua. This happened at a
conference we once had in Haelsingborg.
 
>Christer: The details of how to develop a planned language for _maximum_
>recognizability is a moot question (and rather pointless, IMO, until we
>have more research results). One _can_ speak about it in gross terms:
>Esperanto is less recognizable at first sight than Novial, but is
>Interlingua more recognizable than Novial to Romance speakers, and if so,
>how much?
 
Kjell R.: The question might not so much be what Romance-language speakers
could understand Interlingua as what kind of language education do you need
to be able to understand Interlingua.
 
My - anecdotal experience - is that educated Europeans understand
interlingua. Not everything but enough to be interested to find out more if
the text is interesting. The educated German or Pole will understand it as
well as the Swedish language teacher, the Czech parish priest - at last
having some practical use of his Latin! - and the EU official.
 
The problem writing in Interlingua to an audience that hasn't attended
Interlingua classes means writing as well as you can. That is a challenge.
 
>Then there is the question what a native Spanish-speaker not speaking
>Interlingua (and not being exposed to it before) understands the best, and
>what his attitudes are, to: ungrammatical but fluent Spanish, or fluent
>Interlingua. Both varieties are "incorrect" compared to Castellano. (Are
>they equally strange to the native speaker of Spanish?) For the speaker of
>Interlingua, on the other hand, it might feel better knowing that he
>adheres to the rules of Interlingua, rather than breaking (or bending :-)
>the rules of Spanish. (Would a simplified Spanish give the same kind of
>confidence?)
 
Kjell R.: A simplified Spanish is what many of us will produce if we have
to interact with spanish-speaking people. If it already has been designed
for us or if we have made it ourselves - trying to speak perfect
Castellano! - is probably not so interesting for the listener.
 
You risk meating dum people whether you speak English or any constructed
language. Halfwits will begrudge your English grammar, your accent or your
vocabulary. How do they say? Against Stupidity even the Gods fight in vain!
Or your accent may be very funny, or your name may mean Idiot in some
language. You just can't help it. You use the languages you have at hand...
 
>Christer: In this situation Interlingua is a language that is not
>expected, >and whose use may therefore have to be justified. That wouldn't
>be too >unlike the attitude that Esperantists encounter now and then: "Why
>are >you using that strange language?"
 
Kjell R.: Like if you wanted to publish a scientific paper in Interlingua
and had to persuade the publisher or those who keep the funds that this is
a good idea :-)
 
Remember old Krizhanich in the 17th Century. He just wrote his Politika in
a language he thought was good Russian or Church Slavonic. I don't think he
was an idealist. He just published a book...
 
>>What seems to work against languages of the Esperanto/Ido type is that the=
y
>>are nearly wholly dependent of a convention: I will start learning this
>>language. Then we will communicate.
 
>Christer: Interlingua is almost as much dependent on such a convention.
 
Kjell R.: According to my opinion this _almost_ makes a lot of a difference.
 
Christer: Of course, Interlingua can be understood by many speakers of
Romance languages, and
>that is a nice niche for a naturalistic planned language.
 
Kjell R.: And lots of Scandinavians, Germans, Poles, Czechs etc. I for one
cannot call myself a speaker of a romance language - at least not in the
sence of a "native speaker".
 
 
Christer:  But in order to get Interlingua used in a wider context one
needs producers of texts in Interlingua, and people who speak it.
 
 
Kjell R.: You are wellcome, both as a text producer and a speaker!
 
>Christer: There must be an incentive to use Interlingua instead of
>>another language. An individual who can read and
>understand Interlingua at first sight can understand the same text in
>French, Italian, Spanish, maybe even English, with the same good or bad
>comprehensibility. Why would a prospective author of an article take the
>trouble of defending his writing it in Interlingua, a little-known planned
>language, when a text in an "established" Romance language or English would
>do the job just/almost as effectively? (Depending, of course, on the
>subject matter of the text and the intended audience.) There is no need to
>defend writing in English or French. The motivation for writing in
>Interlingua is most often idealism.
 
Kjell R.:
The fact that I can passively read text in French or Spanish doesn't
necessarily mean that I can write it as well, in the same way as I cannot
write Norwegian and Danish just because I can read books in these language
- which I do from time to time.
 
You may very well call my using Interlingua idealism, but I prefer using a
language that MAY reach outside the fairly small movment of other idealists
- like those promoting Esperanto or Ido.
 
=46or me, here and now, Interlingua means a lot of communication with
interesting people. It has meant a better understanding of Romance
Lanaguages that I am bad at - I managed to read Eco's book on International
Lanaguages astonnishingly well.
 
Personally I think Interlingua has delivered what I wanted. It is there as
an alternative to English and for me that is enough for the time being. I
can with good conscience say that Interlingua is good for every person,
even though the one in question would never meat another Interlingua
speaker.  But this is the extra bonus of interlingua.
 
 
>Christer: IMHO naturalistic planned languages are not much more
>>advantageous than schematic ones. You still need idealists to produce a
>>body of information in the language before any snow-balling
>>dissemination can take place. The Interlingua movement has still to
>>prove that at sight-readability is in any
>way decisive for spreading a planned language.
 
Kjell R.: Sure.
 
>So you can use Interlingua in certain situations, but a general use can
>only be attained by "Esperantist" means (i.e. promote Interlingua in almost
>the same way as the Esperantists promote Esperanto). The situations where
>_only_ Interlingua could be used, and not French/Spanish/Italian, exist, as
>far as I know, only within the Interlingua movement itself.
>
>Christer L"ornemark
>
>[Estus bone se mi tradukintus c'i tiun tekston en iun planlingvon, sed g'i
>estas jam sufic'e longa. Il esserea bon si io haberea traducite iste texto
>in alicun lingua planificate, sed le texto es jam assatis longe.]
 
Kjell R.:
Now for some more Interlingua:
Le maniera diffunder Esperanto es quasi crear un metanation. Il es multo
possibile que iste methodo dara le resultato que nos habera un lingua usate
in un scala enorme in le futuro.
 
La maniero disvastigi esperanton estas kvazaux la kreado de nova sen-nacio.
Tiu metodo tre eble donos la rezulton ke ni havos lingvon uzata en enorma
amplexo en la futuro.
 
Nos naturalmente non sape si le possibilitate leger interlingua a prime
vista essera un medio decisive in le divulgation de interlingua. Le futuro
monstrara isto. Forsan on pote dicer  que nos participa in un multo
interessante experimento.
 
Kompreneble ni ne scias cxu la ebleco legi tekstojn en interlingua sen
preparo estos decida disvastigilo de interlingua. Tion la estonteco
montros. Eble oni povas diri ke ni partoprenas en tre interesa experimento.
 
Let's try both and see which works the best!
 
Ami/calmente -ke
 
Kjell [log in to unmask]
Kjell Rehnstroem
Vaenortsgatan 87
S-752 64  UPPSALA
Suedia - Sweden

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March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
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June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 5
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March 1998, Week 5
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February 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 3
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February 1997, Week 1

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