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AUXLANG  January 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG January 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: machine translation (fwd)

From:

Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:17:55 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (166 lines)

>Je 03:48 ptm 1/18/98 GMT, James CHANDLER skribis:
>
>>Don Harlow skripted:
>>
>>> This is always a danger in any field of human endeavor. But ... did
>>> Gutenberg's invention mean that all those monks who spent time copying
>>> books during the Dark Ages had wasted their time? I don't think so. What
>>> you are doing is working for the conditions under which you live, not for
>>> those in some hypothetical future a hundred years off.
>>
>>I'm not sure that the analogy is quite right, because the monks got an
>>immediate reward for their efforts.
>
>What is your definition of "immediate reward"? Don't you get such a reward
>in the sense of satisfaction you feel in what you have done? In my work for
>Esperanto, I always have (not even counting the occasional cases of
>financial remuneration...). Whatever happens a hundred, or fifty, years
>from now, they won't be able to take that away from me.
>
>>I think it will take at least another
>>20 years to get an IL accepted and a full vocabulary decided on.
>
>Terms requiring definition: "accepted", "full vocabulary".
>
>>If, in
>>25 years time, machine translation is up to the task of serious scientific
>>papers between a large number of languages, then I will really have wasted
>>my time putting International Language and Science on the web.  I really
>>hope it doesn't happen, because I can't imagine anything that will more
>>completely and permanently kill interest in language learning than the
>>ability to translate texts immediately from most foreign languages.
>
>People read foreign-language scientific papers when they can read foreign
>languages; but in my experience, people entering the sciences already have
>at least a basic grounding in one or more foreign languages (even in the
>United States, this is expected of persons expecting to matriculate at most
>serious universities). They don't learn the language just for the purpose
>of reading scientific papers.
>
>
>>I find
>>that languages like Ido actually awaken interest in foreign languages, which
>>is a positive thing since most people have been put off them for life by
>>their school experience of language learning.
>
>This is true of _any_ language that is easy and quick to learn to a
>speaking level. It has been demonstrated to be true of Esperanto so many
>times I've long since lost count; and I'm sure that Kjell can make the same
>comment about Interlingua.
>
>[In fact, if they are going
>>to ban human cloning and other kinds of genetic engineering, isn't there
>>a case for banning machine translation research?  Perhaps mankind can't
>>in the end be prevented from inventing the technology to wipe out all that
>>is valuable in its existence, and eventually also itself.]
>>
>Since I have never figured out just why human cloning should be banned (a
>clone, after all, is not significantly different from an identical twin,
>and _they_ aren't banned...),* I don't understand why machine translation
>research should be banned. The idea of having a machine that turns out
>_good_ translations of all those books from India, China and Estonia that
>I've never been able to read sort of appeals to me. And it won't affect my
>need for an auxiliary language to enable me to talk to the people who wrote
>the books in the first place.
>
>*Now a ban on cloning _sheep_, I can respect that. I don't look forward to
>the world of 20 years from now in which, because of the profit motive,
>every sheep in the world is a clone of Fatso, the meat- and wool-producing
>champion Merino -- and it turns out that Fatso had absolutely no resistance
>to Sheep Dengue Fever! But I don't see this happening with humans.
>
>>> Anyway, they may never get their act together. If they do, it's not clear
>>> to me that their work will be as effective in face-to-face conversation as
>>> a planned language can be. If it is, and if it can translate works of art
>>> as well as dry scientific treatises ... well, in effect they will have
>>> reinvented the human brain, and we (or, more properly, our descendants)
>>> will have bigger worries than whether a couple dozen people on AUXLANG
>>> wasted their time a century earlier.
>>
>>When I'm translating, I certainly feel that I am doing no less than
>>translating the words into a mental model of the situation being described,
>>or the point the writer is making, before formulating the translated
>>sentence in the target language.  If my instinct is correct, full high
>>quality machine translation may be nothing short of fully functioning AI,
>>as you say.  Thankfully, that seems to be a long way off (according to
>>some, a machine can never be equivalent to a human mind anyway - let's
>>hope they're right).
>>
>I wouldn't count on it. On the other hand, as with getting a ConIAL
>"accepted", I also wouldn't count on seeing it happen in your lifetime.
>Life does have a few blessings, doesn't it.
 
From what I know of Ido, Occidental, Esperanto and Novial I am quite
convinced that you can learn them with much less effort than you have got
to invest when wanting to learn Polish or Finnish.
 
Principally the above mentioned languages are using the same vocabulary.
The differences do look bigger than they are. The common vocabulary in
those languages is European.
 
The great difference between them and Interlingua is that the Interlingua
concept is that people with a defined knowledge in languages should be able
to read a text on a subject they know without previous studies.
 
This is carried out by extracting the really international vocabulary from
the source languages. According to the introductory texts of the
Interlingua-English Dictionary its material could be used as is in
Interlingua or in the forming of a new Auxiliary Language. I understand it
that those who wanted to might reject what they did not like and accept the
rest.
 
The best way to spread Interlingua should logically be using it as much as
possible. It is somewhat ridiculous to carry on a discussion with educated
people tellin them that they can understand text in Interlingua without
putting this allegation to test.
 
This is how English is spread: it is being used. In films and newspapers
and radio and... you name it! What makes it used is economic strength and
the fact that the US is the most powerful country on Earth in this moment.
 
Perhaps it should be a good thing if the European Union took on English as
their only official language. I think one generation would do the trick.
One would PERHAPS get some sort of an alternative then.
 
Here and now Interlingua can function as the extra alternative platform I
need now, not tomorrow and not after 100 years when I've been dead for
quite a time.
 
A language like Esperanto has to appeal to your _crossword_ nerve. It sure
did influence mine.
 
From an Esperanto coign of vantage the "naturalism" of Interlingua makes a
bizarre impression, but as soon as you begin to tamper with "naturality"
you loos this immediate comprehension. I found that in practice when
learning Interlingua.
 
The positive extra that Interlingua can provide the monoglot person with if
he/she decides to learn it, is a terrific grasp of the Latin and Greek
heritage in most European languages. And this is - as I said - an extra.
What you get in the first place is an excellent means of intellectual
communication.
 
Even though Swedish is NOT one of Interlinguas source languages I sometimes
get the feeling that it IS! I have not found _seligera_ but you have the
same type of words in _erigera_ - _erektion (just quoting one example).
 
Interlingua is easy for Scandinavians. Many of them already know enough
English, German, French and even Latin to be able to understand it when
reading it. THEY DONT HAVE TO ACCEPT THE VERY IDEA!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Kjell [log in to unmask]
Kjell Rehnstroem
Vaenortsgatan 87
S-752 64  UPPSALA
Suedia - Sweden

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December 2000, Week 5
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