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AUXLANG  January 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG January 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Prejudice/racism

From:

B Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:45:03 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (108 lines)

At 17:18 -0800 on 18.1.1998, Bruce R. Gilson wrote:
 
[Quoting me (BPJ), possibly by way of Ray Brown:]
> >  ... such blatant exclusion of Slavs seems to me at best
> >prejudice, at worst just plain racism.
>
> For the record, my mother's native languages were Russian and Yiddish. My
> father spoke Russian before he ever learned English. Do I have an apology?
 
For what?  I speak Swedish as my L1, but I don't consider myself a Swede in
the ethnical sense (being a rather even mix on one side of Norwegian and
Dutch on the other Ukrainian, Polish, German and whatever has passed
through the region between the Vistula and the Don -- FYI family tradition
has it that the father of my grandfather's grandmother was a
force-converted Jewish man; luckily Hitler's cohorts didn't find this out,
so that only a great-uncle who was an active member of the Social Democrat
resistance fell victim to them.  I see no reason not to take pride in every
aspect of my mixed heritage!)
 
Please remember that your original wording was:
 
> (Don't bring up Slavs; the target
> population is speakers of Western-European-origin languages)
 
As it stands your statement has nothing to do with _Slavic languages_, the
inclusion or exclusion of vocabulary or structures of these languages, from
a pan-European IAL.  What you do is that you expressly deny _the Slavs_
(that is _the Slavic peoples_) any relevancy as part of the target
population for a Euro-IAL.  I fail to read any other meaning into your
statement otherwise than this: "The Slavic peoples are irrelevant; only the
peoples speaking languages that have developed in Western Europe merit
consideration as the target population of an IAL.  (And hence it is only
secondarily that their pronunciation habits are to be considered
irrelevant)".  Maybe it could be inferred that you would consider the Slavs
worthy of consideration if and only if they changed over to one or more
"Western-European-origin languages".  That is IMO not a shade better than
Hitlers statement that the Czechs could be allowed to continue in existance
-- if they consented to convert themselves into German-speaking "Bohemians".
 
Note that I do _not_ say that you are a racist, neither do I compare you to
Hitler (I would never compare anybody but genocidal dictators or
self-acclaimed Nazis to him!), I only say that as they stand your words do
indeed imply a seriously prejudiced or even racist view of Slavic people.
Since also at least one native speaker of English (Ray Brown) reads your
wording the same way as I do not have any reason to believe that any faulty
understanding on my part be to blame.  Perhaps you would better understand
my reaction to your words if I rephrase them.  Suppose that someone wanted
to say "I don't think Yiddish should be considered in an European-IAL; it
is probably impossible to include any Hebrew vocabulary in a meaningful
way", but instead he said: "Don't bring up Jews; the target population is
speakers of Western-European-origin languages".  I'm sure such a wording
would throw you into a tirade of dismay, would it not?
 
> It is possible to make a Germano-Romance language that works well. Even Ray
> and James, whose opinions of our modifications to Novial are quite negative,
> agree at least that the language as it emerged from Jespersen's works shows
> this.
 
You may, of course, add me to that list.
 
> I believe that extending the net wider, however, pays such a penalty in
> recognizability for the speakers of Germanic and Romance languages that
> there is no way to gain enough recognizability to Slavs to balance this.
 
My reasoning goes along these lines: if a Euro-IAL were to be based
exclusively on Romance there would still, in spite of the large number of
Graeco-Latin and Romance vocabulary items that have permeated all European
languages, have to be a fairly large portion of the vocabulary that was
exclusively Romance and hence unrecognisable to non-Romance speakers.
Jespersen obviously reasoned that at least one could make it equally
difficult to all, and include some exclusively Germanic vocabulary -- even
use it as a tool to avoid homonyms that would arise with an exclusively
Romance vocabulary.  Jespersen was a child of _his_ time, unable or at
least unmotivated to look beyond Latin and the languages of the three great
Western European powers of the 19th century -- probably he also saw Novial
as a tool to foster detente and the feeling of community among Western
Europeans, and so battle the unwholesome expressions of nationalism that
crept up all over Europe after the first World War.  In our time it is not
only desirable but imperative to extend the same message to ther peoples of
Eastern Europe as well.
 
In any case the ubiquitousness of the Graeco-Latin and Romance
"international vocabulary" will ensure that about half the vocabulary of
any Euro-IAL will be readily recognizable, but it must not be forgotten
that a good deal of the words and forms of Romance languages are exclusive
to them -- this is immediately felt by a speaker of a Germanic language
other than English who reads a text in Interlingua -- and I daresay the
same must be true of speakers of Slavic languages (regardless if they
identify themselves as Slavs, Jews or Gypsies!).  If Jespersen in his day
found it expedient and defensible -- even desirable -- to include a deal of
Germanic vocabulary into Novial, I feel it both expedient, defensible and
desirable to widen the franchise to include the Slavic languages into
Eurial.  That Slavic vocabulary can be made to coexist with Romance and
Germanic vocabulary is shown beyond doubt by several natlangs, chiefly
Rumanian and Czech.  Indeed there is no reason not to give the other
language-families of Europe their fair consideration: modern Finnish,
Hungarian, Greek and Welsh are all permeated not only by Latinate
vocabulary but also by vocabulary from their neighboring Germanic and
Slavic languages.
 
Things may seem different to people living in America, here only English,
Spanish and French have large communities of speakers, but to unprejudiced
inhabitants of continental Europe the picture is needs rather different!
 
Respectfully,
 
/Philip Jonsson

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February 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 4
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 3
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January 2002, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 1
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June 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
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June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 5
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March 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
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