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AUXLANG  January 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG January 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Ingglish in Cyrillic

From:

B Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:43:56 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (107 lines)

At 20:28 +0000 on 13.1.1998, Julian Pardoe wrote:
 
 
> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Most English sounds can be closely approximated with Cyrillic
> > letters, except for "th" and "w." What would you suggest for
> > creating those sounds?
>
> In pre-1917 Russian there was a letter that was a kind of theta.
> It sounded like 'f' (and was replaced by it); Russian has some
> words with 'f' where the rest if the world has 't' (or 'th'):
> 'kafedra' professorial chair/bishop's throne, 'arifmet(i)ka'
> (not sure about the 'i'): arithmetic.  Cyrillic also had an
> upsilon, looking like a 'v'.  (The other Russian oddity is 'g'
> for 'h': they talk about 'Gamlet'.  In Ukrainian {g} is voiced
> /x/.)
 
Also note "Fyodor" from "Theodoros".  This is the normal Russian treatment
of Theta, and as you say they kept theta in the spelling untill the
beginning of this century.
 
As for Ukrainian the traditional orthography -- though not the official
Soviet one -- distinguishes two Gs:
    ___           ___/
(1) |  \  and (2) |
    |             |
 
(1) corresponds formally and historically to Russian /g/, but is pronounced
/Q/.  It is commonly used to represent Latin and German /h/, and so it is
usually transcribed {h}; those who know about Czech will notice the
parallellism to Chech {h}!
(2) is used for /g/, chiefly in foreign words, and is differentiated by a
usually rather bold upward serif not unlike the one seen on the digit 5 in
some Roman fonts.
 
 
> For /w/ u-breve naturally suggests itself because (a) it is used
> in Belorussian and (b) it follows the model of i kratkoj (short
> i).
>
> Anyone looking at this should look at several Cyrillic
> alphabets, not just the current Russian one.  Firstly, you won't
> be inventing new letters when ones already exist -- either in
> other language's versions of the alphabet or in older versions.
> Secondly, where you do at a new letter you are more likely to be
> consistent with existing practice.
>
> Thus the German /"o/ sound (I can't remember the ASCII IPA) is
> often an 'o' with a curly horizontal line through it, [y] a
> Russian 'u' with the tail vertical (so the uppercase form is
> like the Latin 'Y' in most fonts.
 
Another method found is to use the soft sign after the corresponding back
vowels.  The problem with the symbols you mention is that the one is too
similar to Fita/Theta, while the other seems odd given that old Cyrillic
_had_ an Ypsilon!
 
> One common way of creating a new letter is to add a 'tittle'
> such as distinguishes {sh} from {shch}.  When I adapted Cyrillic
> for Esperanto I used {kh}+tittle for /h/ and {zh}+tittle for
> /dZ/.
 
Wouldn't G+tittle (perhaps with the tittle _above_, as a more distinct
version of the Ukrainian letter!) for /g/ and Russian G for /h/ have been
more natural in view of the Russian and Ukrainian treatment of foreign
words?
As for /dZ/ Serbian has a letter for this sound (given as (3) below),
derived from an ancient form (4) of the Cyrillic /tS/.  While would I agree
that Serbian /dZ/ looks perhaps too similar to /ts/ there is also an
ancient version of /Z/ that would come in handy for /dZ/, which I give as
(5) below.
                              ___
    |   |       (___)         _|_
(3) |___|   (4)   |      (5) / | \
      |
 
 
> (Being me I also had complex rules for {je} and e oborotnoje
> (e}.  Too many e oborotnyje look odd but the habit of
> pronouncing {e} as /je/ after a vowel or at the beginning of
> word is too ingrained!  Ukrainian has an "e oborotnoje
> oborotnoje" for [je] and uses {e} for [e].)
 
The "e oborotnoje oborotnoje" :-) is of course the Old Cyrillic
(pre-Petrine) form of E; there was also a ligature of "iota" and this E,
similar to the ligature now used for /ju/ in Russian.  Further it should of
course be noted that Bulgarian uses the hard sign for [log in to unmask]  When I fooled
around with the Cyrillic alphabet for writing Swedish I used the old letter
jat' (similar to a Roman {b} with a crossbar through the stem for /&/ and
the Old Cyrillic nasalized vowels transcribed e-hook and o-hook for /%/ --
i.e. {"o} I don't remember if this is the correct ASCII-IPA! -- and /A/.
Traditional Ossetic Cyrillic also used ae-ligature.
 
All in all I would prefer using letters from the traditional Slavic
orthographies or Old Cyrillic -- or forms derived from these -- to the
various letters invented for Soviet minority languages; these were a result
of Stalin's "divide-and-conquer" policies and are now anyway abandoned en
masse in favor of Roman- or Arabic-derived scripts.
 
> -- jP --
 
/Philip Jonsson
 
PS: I once read that the Elisabethan Hellenist, philologist and spelling
reformer Thomas Cheke at least played with using the Greek alphabet for
English!

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