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AUXLANG  January 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG January 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: "Hilok" vs. "seliger" (was: Free formation - a comparison (fwd))

From:

"Bruce R. Gilson" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:01:36 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (185 lines)

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 
>At 17:21 14/1/98, Bruce R. Gilson wrote:
>>Ray Brown seems to think that I'm being a hypocrite in defending the form
>>"hi-" (in NN "hilok" etc.) and criticizing "seliger" of Interlingua.
 
>Perhaps it's time to let the readers decide.
 
>>The two are quite different,
>Are they? I think not, but again I'll let the readers decide
 
>>even if both come from Classical Latin.
 
>>It is one thing to use ClLat as a resource of absolutely last resource, when
>>none of the languages we use as a source agrees with any other.
 
>It is not true that HI is an absolutely last resource.  I personally made
>at least _two_ other suggestions, BASED ON MODERN EUROPEAN LANGUAGES.  I
 
I don't recall. Did you give any form that represented a point of agreement of
even _two_ modern European languages? As between "this," "-ci," "esto," and
"questo," I see very little agreement. Besides "questo" looks like an interrog-
ative in the Novial system (which the NN group did not create) and "this" has
a sound we don't want in an international language. "Dis," the original N28/30
form, does approximate E and also D "dies-" but it was not liked by anyone
because of its resemblance to no less than TWO other Novial morphemes, "dis-"
meaning "distributive," and "des-" meaning "opposite of." The French "-ci" is
always suffixed to something else. What are we left with?
 
>know others did also.  I'd be extremely surprised if there were not other
>suggestions with the "Novial group" itself.  It was not an _absolute last_
>resort by any stretch of the imagination.
 
I think it was. Look at what we had to deal with in the source languages, and
give me a better one. I challenge you to do so.
 
>As to whether none of the source languages agree or not, I don't know since
>I don't know the precise source languages.  But if this is so, then it
>would seem a remarkably small set of sources languages even for a
>Euroclone.  In any case, when it came to an infinitive marker the group was
>quite happy to except 'at' even though it exists as such only in Danish, I
>believe.
 
Again, the only alternatives were the original "tu" from Eng. (which is
impossible because J forgot, when he adopted -u as a concrete neuter in 1930,
that "tu" no less than "to" becomes excluded) and something that might
represent German "zu," as the Romance languages generally use no such particle.
"Zu" is particularly bad because the initial Z in German is a [ts] sound, which
nobody but Germans can pronounce easily (Don't bring up Slavs; the target
population is speakers of Western-European-origin languages) and if we use the
_spelling_ "zu" we come up with something that has no resemblance to the
pronunciation of German. "At" is at least Danish, and _written_ Norwegian, so
it's not _totally_ arbitrary.
 
>>It is another to use such a form when a perfectly good international form
>>does exist, namely (if you want to use naturalistic spelling) "select-" or
>>(if you want to use phonetic spelling) "selekt-."
 
>But as I understand it, IL does use 'select-'; it also uses 'selig-' as well.
 
Yes, but for the VERB "to select" it uses "selig-," which is NOT found in the
languages prospective learners of I-a know. Even the most fanatic Interlingua
advocate cannot deny this.
 
>>Also, note that "hi-" and "-lok" are used uniformly and UNVARYINGLY for these
>>purposes. While only if you know ClLat are you going to realize that "-lig-"
>>and "-lect-" are forms of the same stem.
 
>This is poor reasoning.  You DO NOT have to know Latin to know that -lig-
>and -lect- are forms of the same verb, any more than you have to know Latin
>to know that HI means this and -LOK means place (Latin: locus).
 
If you learn BOTH -lig- and -lect- as words while you are learning I-a, you
are learning two separate forms instead of one. And learning that they are
related, so that in some forms you are supposed to use one and some the other,
is about of the order of learning irregular verbs, knowing that in French
you have "e^tes" and "dites" while almost every French verb has an -ez form
in the 2nd plual present. I thought the reason for IALs rather than learning
each other's natling was that they would be easier to learn, more regularly
formed. I-a _is_ more regular than modern Romance languages. I just feel it
could, and should, be even _more_ regular.
 
>Learners of N98 will, I assume, know that HI = 'this' and -LOK = 'place'
>BECAUSE THEY LEARN THEM AS PART OF N98.  As I understand it, Interlingua
>uses two verb stems: one derived from the Latin infectum & the other from
>the supinum.  But surely a learner of IL learns these stems AS PART OF THE
>INTERLINGUA LANGUAGE?  The is no need for her to learn Latin first!
 
Well, when you learn a new language, it helps to relate the words to ones you
already know. This is why Spanish is easier for English speakers than Hunga-
rian, though the latter has an easier grammar. It is also easier to need to
learn only _one_ root than 2, 3, or in some cases even 4, with extra rules to
tell you which one to use in what case.
 
One thing that Interlingua advocates take pride in is at-sight readability.
People who have _not_ formally learned I-a can read it, and this is, I think,
its greatest merit. But now you come back and say that as part of the process
of learning I-a, the learner has to learn these long lists of parallel stems.
Does this defeat at-sight readability? Certainly.
 
>I agree that HILOK is formed regularly according to the rules of N98.  But,
>as Stan has shown more than once, SELIGER is also formed regularly
>according to the rules of IL from the INTERLINGUA morphemes SE- -LIG- -ER.
 
Except that -lig- appears also as -lect-, while neither hi- nor -lok
_ever_ appears in any other form. And when two forms of a Novial morpheme
both appear, as in -tione and -ione, they are FAR more closely related pho-
netically than -lig- and -lect- or ag- and act-.
 
>>From my position, as an adherent of neither language, the two words are
>remarkably parallel, even to the extent of a Classical Latin base, cf.
>IL  seliger ~ Latin: seligere
>N98 hilok   ~ Latin: hoc loco
 
Except in the total system. "Hilok" is found with "hitem," "hidie," etc., and
"otrilok," "tilok," "irgilok," etc. "Seliger" is found with "selection,"
"selectiv," where the relationship of the words is hidden by the shift from
-lig- to -lect-.
 
>When N98 for "this" was being discussed on this list, I objected that the
>proposed forms HI, HE, HA, HO, HU were based on a Classical Latin word that
>had NOT SURVIVED INTO MODERN ROMANCE. You dismissed my objections, as you
>have, of course, every right to, dismissed the suggested forms from modern
>languages and defended HI etc. both then and now.
 
None of the "suggested forms from modern languages" were justifiable for
reasons I gave earlier in this letter. If there had been an acceptable modern
form, I would have supported it.
 
>Yet, you object to SELIGER on the grounds that it is Classical Latin and
>has left no descendants in any modern language.  Even though, as you admit,
>the Classical word has left derivatives from its supine form.
 
FROM ITS SUPINE FORM. So _use_ the supine form, darn it!
 
 
>I've tried to state my position as clearly as I can. I'm not a great
>admirer of Euroclones, anyway,
 
... which makes it rather unfair for you to be passing judgment on either of
the two languages in question, since BOTH are based on the premises that only
a Euroclone will do...
 
> ... but I don't like what appears to be double
>standards: "it's OK in my language but not in yours".
 
Let me say this. What is OK, in ANY language, to me is regularity. To adopt
two forms because Latin had separate forms, WHEN MODERN LANGUAGES HAVE ALL
GONE TO ONE (or use neither!) is a backward step in an IAL. Just because there
were three stems in Latin does not make it desirable to use all three, or even
the 2 that I-a generally uses, because we are trying to make a _simple_ lan-
guage.
 
Furthermore, in criticizing "seliger," I seem to be devoting a lot of time to
one word. I am, precisely _because_ much of I-a's vocabulary choice is good.
Far better than Esperanto's, with its "kaj," "edzo," "-igi" (and "-ighi," which
I can never keep straight from it which is which!), etc.
 
I do not criticize the choice of ClLat morphemes in LsF or Glosa. These are
part of the scheme; LsF assumes you _have_ a Latin dictionary in fact, since
nobody ever produced an LsF dictionary. But I-a has a different aim. It is,
in the words of one I-a devotee (I think it was Gode, but I'm not sure)
supposed to be "Standard Average European." (I might rather make it "Standard
Average Romance." But I'll not fight on this point.) So when we look at I-a,
we must look at it from the point of view of "how easily is a speaker of a
modern (west) European language going to recognize it?"
 
As Julian, who seems to be backing you up in your arguments, stated earlier,
languages should not be criticized for NOT doing what they do not TRY to do.
But If I-a advocates continually (and usually justifiably!) point out how I-a
has this great advantage of at-sight readability, then if something detracts
from at-sight readability, it is fair game to criticize.
 
>However, I do publically withdraw the charge of hypocricy, which I
>understand to imply willful dishonesty.  I'm certain Bruce is *not* guilty
>of that and I apologize for suggesting otherwise.
 
Thank you.
 
                                Bruce R. Gilson
                                email: [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
                                IRC: EZ-as-pi
                                WWW: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3141
                                (for language stuff: add /langpage.html)

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March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
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June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 5
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March 1998, Week 5
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February 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 3
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February 1997, Week 1

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