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AUXLANG  January 1998, Week 5

AUXLANG January 1998, Week 5

Subject:

Re* Brain and "universal language"

From:

Robin Gaskell <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:21:07 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (136 lines)

At 12:17 PM 1/24/98 +0100, Jens S. Larsen wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Robin Gaskell wrote:
>
>> At 11:47 AM 1/22/98 +0100, Lens Larsen wrote:
>
>Ahem!  Doesn't your mail program provide the name of the one you're
>responding to?  It's JENS S. Larsen (Jens is a Scandinavian form for
>John).
>
*       Sorry, no.  Must have been tireder than I thought, to get your name wrong
twice.
 
>
>No, I'm thinking in terms of natural constraints to the structure of
>any human language.
>
>> The language universals are ~human qualities~ not *features of
>> a language.*
>
>I probably agree with that...
>
*       Good news, we agree on the site of the "Universals", but I seem to have
the problem of thinking that people operate these Universals, rather than are
subject to them.
 
>>      [  .......  ]
>
>...but this you got wrong.  The language universals are structures in
>our brain that we use to pick up the language(s) of our surroundings.
>   [ .... ]   they are the minimum of rules that all languages adhere
>to, by virtue of being human languages.
>
*       Probably where I come unstuck: rules of language vs qualities of mind?!
 
>>  [ .... ]  variability and distribution curves.  In the days of
>> 'proto-language' such factors were operating, and the
>> resulting social invention, language, was subject to such
>> variability.
>
>No, no, no.  If you're human, then you're genetically conditioned to
>develop language.  Our species getting some kind of language was not
>an invention.  Getting a specific language is a creative invention we
>all make at least once in our life, in our early childhood.
>
*       Two timescales are at work: in the life of each one of us, language is
re-invented, as we discover the inherent ability to speak; but, taking the
longer view, sometime in the pre-history of the developing life on this
planet, intelligent life-forms started talking to one another - using a
proto-language.
 
>>         Getting back to Chales Darwin, language as a human
>> social artefact, also follows the law of "survival of the
>> fittest," so if your L1 allowed you to utter an idea more or
>> less successfully, but on meeting someone with a language (L2)
>> that let you express yourself much better, then the L2 element
>> gradually supplants the L1, and evolution plays its part.  So
>>   [  ....  ]   earlier, DOG BITE MAN SO MAN KILL DOG became
>> DOG BITE MAN SO HE KILL IT.
>
>It's fitter (in biological terms) to have any language, not to have
>one language rather than another.   [  .........  ]
>
>>         And, let's be honest, some of our brothers and sisters
>> - in 1998 - still operate language systems that lack pronouns.
>>      [  ..........  ]
>
>What language are you talking about?
>
*       Sorry, I am extrapolating, here from reported usages of English by people
for whom it is an L2: the fact that some isolated populations use English
without pronouns could be their lack of knowlege of the appropriate
pronouns in
English, rather than the lack of pronouns in their own language.
 
        But the example of an absence of sophistication in language, that I can
attest to, is the absence of differentiated male and female pronouns in
Persian and in Chinese.  I have discussed the lack of a he/she difference
with people from both of these language groups.  Both the Assyrian and
Chinese civilisations
are older than the one which produced the English language, but this lack
of gender differentiation seems, to me, to be more "primitive", or "less
evolved", than the situation in English where we can tell whether it is he
or she.
 
>> > The universal principles are embodied in everyone's
>> > language; if some person's language is more "right",
>> > it's more probably related to features specific to the
>> > language in question, than to universal features.
>
>> * Jens, I would have to disagree with some of this.  Yes, two
>> parameters are confused in here: an individual's Language
>> Ability and the capacity of a language to permit clear
>> expression.
>>
>>         The healthy individual  [ .... ] would use his/her supreme
>> grasp of the Universals to express themselves as well as their inherited
>> language medium permited.
>
>It's not the language user who grasps the universals, it's the
>universals that grasp the language user.
>
*       I am simply saying that the Language Ability shows a distribution
among the population of the users of any one particular language; and, I
step up one order of magnitude to say that the Communication Quotient of
the various languages also demonstrates such a distribution.
        Obviously, now, I will have to attempt to prove it!
 
>>         On the other hand, you and I are both in danger of
>> condemnation by the "political correctivists" if we state the
>> blatently obvious, and say that one language medium permits
>> people to use the Universals better than another.
>
>Well, I'm a political correctivist, then.  It's not the medium itself
>that makes it easy or difficult to say something; it's how much there
>has been spoken/written about the subject beforehand in the language
>in question, and how much one has heard/read of it (and replied).
>
*       So, you would plunk for context and experience to explain the difference
in expressive power between populations, whereas I prefer to see the
Language Ability, and its associated "Universals", as being the result of
some sort of 'organic' evolution process.
        Maybe the "Universals" whatever they are, wherever they reside, appeared
in the undifferentiated proto-man millenia before any of the languages of
archaeology came about, and this propensity for language has remained at
full strength, throughout the whole human gene-pool, ever since.
        I feel, on the other hand, that the Language Ability, like the giraffe's
neck, has grown according to need.
 
 ------------------------
All this forces me to start reading the nice glossy book I bought a year
ago, "Chomsky's Universal Grammar - An Introduction: Second Edition" by
Vivian Cook and Mark Newson (Blackwell, 1996).
 
Cheers,
 Robin

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January 2001, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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