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AUXLANG  February 1998, Week 4

AUXLANG February 1998, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Rather: Appropriateness of Bruces reaction to Marcos' entry on the Novial list

From:

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:29:02 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (116 lines)

At 18:17 25/2/98, Jay Bowks wrote:
[....]
>trying to push the group in a different direction... And that
>makes me laugh, Bruce, you keep using a plural first
>person when I perceive you are speaking of your own
>originality... after all wasn't one of the decisions reached
>by the Novial Liste Grupe to ditch the Royal first person?
>:-P
 
That's interesting.  I noticed it had quietly disappeared together with
inclusive & exclusive 1st person plurals.
 
When I was on the 'Novial List' the language had _two_ first person
pronouns, thus:
   SINGULAR                  PLURAL
   me [used by commoners]    mes [exclusive plural - I + others]
   nu [used by monarchs]     nus [inclusive plural - I + you]
 
When I objected quite vigorously to this system, there was no question of a
re-vote on it.
 
My objections were twofold: the plural distinction, though found, e.g. in
Polynesian languages (er, not, I think, N98's target!), was not
sufficiently widely used to justify it in a conIAL, particularly one with a
Americo-European bias; secondly the inclusion of a "royal singular" was, to
say the least, undemocratic & would ensure the language was not taken
seriously.
 
(Ok - I know Jespersen actually does give 'nu' with this possible meaning
both in AIL and NL.  But there were slightly more monarchs about in his
day).
 
This was defended on the grounds that:
(a) the differentiation between inclusive & exclusive 1st plural is useful
(So how come the majority of the world's languages don't observe it?);
(b) 'Nus' needs a singular and, in any case, it's unlikely any monarch will
actually speak Novial!
 
I'm glad to see that saner counsels have later prevailed.  These matters
must have been put to a re-vote at some time.
 
So there's certainly precedent for reconsidering the notorious verbal -R
(tho I doubt it will be).
 
 
>>I think it's clear that input from people whose native language
>is not English
>>is greatly to be desired.
>
>And when it has been given it has been termed by you as
>"radical"
>and "undesirable", in my case, and in Marco's like it's not
>worthy of
>a response and "out of order".
 
I find it noteworthy that the ones I know of have been a Scandinavian,
Kjell, and two Romance speakers, Jay & Marcos.  What have all three in
common?  They spoke out against the vebal -R sacred cow.  IMO it's hardly
surprising as it's difficult to see how Scandinavians or Romanics will feel
happy at N98's strange use of it.  What a pity some Anglophones cannot take
note of those who input they say the greatly desire.
 
[....]
>Being a newbie to the list more leniency would have
>been in order, perhaps a private message stating the
>norms and expectations expressed in a civil and
>welcoming manner would have made for friendly rather
>than enemy projects.
 
1Yes, indeed.  Even an open letter on the Novial List couched in somewhat
less frenzied terms would've been better.
 
[.....]
>>total overhaul of the language, while I, one of the two
>original members and
>>a co-chairman of the group, cannot even get a discussion of one
>word I think
>>we need to change, because I'm playing by the rules.
>>
>
>if this has to do with "akusar/akuzar" I can understand
>your frustration, it makes absolutely no sense to me
>to have a root word with "s" and its derivatives with
>"z" much too much like Zamenhof's choices of
>fancy and not logically consistent
 
Exactly as I said was bound to happen when /z/ was introduced as a distinct
phoneme beside /s/.  The treatment of these are so varied in N98's source
languages that it's difficult to see how arbritariness can possibly be
avoided in the choice of very many words.
 
It seems typical of the way it appeared to me the group working was
working: going from one arbitrary majority decision (some of which have
subsequently been overturned) to another, without stoppng to consider the
_overall_ implication of each change.
 
And at 16:30 25/2/98, Bruce R. Gilson wrote:
>The biggest frustration with me was not "akusar/akuzar" though I think the
>group
>did the wrong thing. It has to do with "max" replacing "plu" which has a number
>of other, I think unintended, consequences.
 
"which has a number of other, I think unintended, consequences" - just the
point I was making about the I saw the group appearing to work when I was
on it.  It doesn't seem to have changed.
 
And 'max' ~ 'maxim' on the analogy of 'min' ~ 'minim' looks remarkably like
a bit of schematicism to me!  It is surely no worse than 'tirez', 'quirez',
'kilok', 'hilok' etc.
 
Well, I say, leave the anglophonic N98 group to its deliberations.  Let
Marcos do his own thing as James Chandler & Philip Jonsson are doing, and
we can done with this wearisome thread.
 
Ray.

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