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AUXLANG  February 1998, Week 4

AUXLANG February 1998, Week 4

Subject:

Re: The new flame-war (was: Assorted Novial observations)

From:

"Bruce R. Gilson" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:55:37 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (232 lines)

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 
>At 15:28 22/2/98, Bruce R. Gilson wrote:
>>>What I find preocupating about the N98 group is that they are (in
>>>general) fixing up some defects (not all) of J's N by the introduction
>>>of new defects.
 
>>Well, I think _your_ proposals KEEP the defects in J's Novial and try to
>>change what is GOOD for the WORSE.
 
>From where I stand, I agree with Marcos' critism of the N98 group but that
>Bruce's critism of Marcos would be somewhat unfair had he not included "I
>think".
 
But I _did_ include those words. I'm quite aware that I was expressing an
opinion there.
 
>Surely the point is that what one person likes about Novial, another finds
>to be "a defect"; what one thinks is a needed 'reform', another thinks is a
>new defect.
 
Quite true. That is why James has chosen to go his own way, making his own
reforms which sometimes coincide, and sometimes differ, with ours.
 
>I have observed before that *NO ONE* is actually proposing reviving
>Jespersen's Novial.  The N98 group, Marcos & James are all preoccupied with
>fixing up what they consider defects & introducing new features: i.e. _all_
>are producing a _new_ language, starting - it is true - from Novial (or
>their preferred version of Novial), no less than Philip Jonsson is doing
>with Eurial.
 
I have no quarrel with anything you state in this paragraph.
 
>>Frankly, this is exactly what I mean when I say that your proposals and mine
>>go in opposite directions.
 
>>The -e/-a/-o noun/verb/noun derivation is, in my mind, the absolute worst
>>feature in Novial.
 
>Strange, then, that Jespersen thought this one of the better features!  I
>admit that in 1937 he seems to have dropped the -o derivative, keeping only
>-e/-a; but till then J seems to have considered itone of the better
>features of his language.
 
I respect Jespersen immensely. But I do not believe that _every_ decision he
ever made was right. Is there _any_ person of whom you can state that you be-
lieve _never_ made a mistake?
 
In NL, p. 15, Jespersen points to the desirability, if you use -s for the
plural or -a for the feminine, of doing so consistently, for all words of the
language (pronouns as well as nouns). In many other places he differentiates
between forms that are _identical_ in the source languages because they do not
have the same meaning, so he uses two _different_ forms (e. g. resiva/resepte;
grue/krane). I sincerely believe that if he were alive today, and we were
discussing this point, he would concede that two meanings for -a are not a
good idea. Marcos, actually, agrees. But his solution is diametrically opposite
fromm mine/ours. (Mine, because I proposed it. Ours, because the whole group
accepted it.)
 
It is impossible to say which one J would give up. But I feel that -o/-a for
sex markers are more international than the use in the derivative chain, and
we use -e/-ar/-anse so that the derivation chain is kept, and only the specific
forms differ. Would Jespersen, who accepted changes in many morphemes, think
that what we've done is contrary to his plan? I think not, but we can't tell.
I _do_ say that the CONCEPT of the -e/-a/-o derivations is kept, but not the
_specific_forms_.
 
>>And you want to expand upon it! I'm sorry. I cannot see
>>any way we can collaborate on one language.
 
>>Will you understand this, Marcos? THERE IS NO WAY that you and I can be brought
>>into agreement on this point. You can make your points, which I find unconvin-
>>cing. And you don't find _my_ points convincing. Repeating yourself ad
>>infinitum
>>will not make your points any more telling with me.
 
>And, Bruce, repeating yourself ad infinitum on, e.g. the verbal -R will not
>make your points any more telling.
 
The thing is, I'm not trying to collaborate with _you_, Ray. Marcos seems to
feel he wants to collaborate with us, but his idea of collaboration is for us
to give up our ideas and accept his.
 
>>You can create a language, which I guarantee I will find _less_ to my liking
>>than pure unchanged N30. Just as James will create his language, which at this
>>point I don't know enough to comment on, but I suspect I'll like it better than
>>N30 but less than our project.
 
>I suspect you will!
 
By now you know my preferences. But note here that's _all_ I say. I feel Marcos'
ideas are a step backwards. He doesn't. But _I_ must act on the basis of my
_own_ assessments.
 
>I find this all very sad.  We have _three_ 'reforms' going on.  All profess
>to like Novial - but "it has defects".  All purport to remedy these
>defects; by doing so, all in introduce what are perceived by others to be
>"new defects".
 
Why is this sad? We have three strains of thought here. Al of us have a great
respect for Otto Jespersen. In my case, I'm trying to follow the letter of what
he says on p. 60 of AIL:
   ... though, as I have said in Part I, we
   are approaching a period of agreement on the principle of
   language-construction, that period has not yet arrived, and
   interlinguists must therefore show the widest toleration of each
   other's systems and provisionally admit alternative forms, which will
   have to be tested thoroughly in practice before the bad ones are
   weeded out finally.
 
I've invited Marcos to build his _own_ system and let it compete with ours.
 
>No we have a major proponent of one of these "reforms" already stating
>before any are completed that he suspects he'll like Novial 1930 better
>than the rival reforms.  Talk about a closed mind!
 
Well, I've already seen enough of what Marcos wants to do. But read back what
I said about James: I said I'd probably like James' reform _better_ than N30.
 
You have already seen enough of _our_ project to decide you don't like it.
Can I state that you've decided this "before any are completed"? Is your mind
any more open than mine?
 
>Hasn't it just slightly occurred to him that the Marcos & James might think
>the same about whatever N98 gets named?  Mightn't they not just prefer
>Novial 1930 better than N98?
 
Sure it has. But I've not told James or Marcos _not_ to elaborate their
proposals. Can't you see that there is a difference here? Marcos came into our
group, and from the beginning his attitude has been "I know better than you.
Give up what you've been working on for two years, and follow my lead." My
position, which I can't see how anyone can characterize as unreasonable, is,
"Go ahead, Marcos. Make your own language. I can't see any hope of compromise
between what you do and what we're in the midst of doing. But do this as a
competitor, not trying to co-opt our project." Ray, can I say anything more to
explain this difference?
 
>Isn't this just a little pathetic?
 
Pathetic? The only thing I see as pathetic is Marcos' refusal to realize that
what he's trying to do is not the way to realize his goal. To come into a group
which has well-defined ideas as to how we want to revise Novial and say, "You're
wrong. Follow me instead" is _not_ productive. If he'd do as James is, work on
his own project, whether inviting collaborators or not, perhaps he'll create
a language that some people might like. Whether _more_ would like his or our
product, I can't predict. But that's what "competition" means.
 
>NO ONE as far as I can see actually wants to revive Jespersen's language.
 
>All this _silly_ "My Novial's better than your Novial", "You've kept the
>worst bits and changed the good ones", etc. is surely not going to endear
>Novial to any one who's not met the language before.
 
I agree. As I've said before, what I want to do is have Marcos leave us alone,
let James alone, build his language and let us all compete. Put all three, as
well as Philip's Eurial and some non-Novial-based creations ranging from
Esperanto to Interlingua, before the world, Let them make a decision when the
languages are complete.
 
Each of our three proposals is, in the opinion of its creator(s), "better than
yours." But it's not us who'll decide. What I'm simply asking for is the right
to develop the language that _we_ are working on, without bull-in-the-china-shop
tactics by such as Marcos.
 
>All we'll getting - as I said we would - is a new flame-war starting: this
>time between so-called 'Novialists' (I somehow don't think Jespersen would
>be impressed by this).
 
I agree with you that Jespersen would be unhappy at the flames. But I think he
would be very happy that _all_ of us started from his creation. As he said in
AIL:
 
   ...  I shall be happy if it is recognized that I have
   contributed in some slight measure to bring about the victory of the
   idea in general and to give its final shape to the International
   Auxiliary Language of the future.
>>But you've got to understand this, the changes you have proposed have been
>>_without_exception_ ones I find to be changes for the _negative_. I do not
>>believe I've seen a _single_ suggestion that I consider an improvement. There
>>is _truly_ no basis for a common effort.
 
>All are welcomed to join the N98 group, as long as the changes they propose
>are OK!  Otherwise "there is _truly_ no basis for a common effort".
 
Hey, wait a minute. This is not a new project. We've been elaborating this
for 2 years. It seems to me that there's a certain direction we've set. I
think it is fair to say that people who do not agree with the basic direction
are _not_ welcome.
 
Be a bit fair here. I don't go onto Interlng or even Phil Hunt's Eurolang
list (more analogous, since his language is still under development) and
try to change the basic direction. I wasn't even able, when I suggested a
relatively minor change to Lojban, to get it considered. And my change would
not have changed the fundamental look of the language.
 
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
>And at 21:24 22/2/98, Bruce R. Gilson wrote:
>.......
>>Jay posted his note to both Auxlang and the Novial list. I'm not sure why.
>>But for the Auxlangers, what they may not know is that we have a project going
>>for two years. We're close to completing it, and here comes this new
 
>[diatribe snipped]
 
>>pute. But as long as he did, I will respond to him here. I FEEL THAT THE IDEAS
>>EXPRESSED BY MARCOS REPRESENT THE BIGGEST THREAT TO THE NOVIAL REVIVAL GROUP
>>SINCE ITS INCEPTION. I put that in capital letters to make it clear how I feel.
>---------------------------------------------------------------
 
>Point proven, I think.
 
What point? We have a nearly complete project, and he tries to co-opt it.
 
Let's be totally clear here. Marcos has my total blessing to go off and create
his own language. Where I think the problem is is that he refuses to accept
that other people might not like his direction. You can see this, why can't
you realize that I'm saying only the same thing you are here?
 
Suppose that, instead of just discussing other IAL projects, you _did_ decide
you wanted to work on your own IAL project. And you recruited a number of
similarly-minded people, and as you were approaching completion, some new
member of the group comes in and immediately makes his presence known by
criticizing the decisions made at the beginning of the project, on which every
other decision rested. Would you just benignly smile and say "How nice"?
 
                                Bruce R. Gilson
                                email: [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
                                IRC: EZ-as-pi
                                WWW: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3141
                                (for language stuff: add /langpage.html)

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December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3
September 1998, Week 2
September 1998, Week 1
August 1998, Week 4
August 1998, Week 3
August 1998, Week 2
August 1998, Week 1
July 1998, Week 5
July 1998, Week 4
July 1998, Week 3
July 1998, Week 2
July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
October 1997, Week 2
October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
September 1997, Week 4
September 1997, Week 3
September 1997, Week 2
September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 5
August 1997, Week 4
August 1997, Week 3
August 1997, Week 2
August 1997, Week 1
July 1997, Week 5
July 1997, Week 4
July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 3
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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