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AUXLANG  February 1998, Week 4

AUXLANG February 1998, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Fw: What is Marcos' proposal about? (fwd)

From:

Marcos Franco <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 25 Feb 1998 04:02:25 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (152 lines)

On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:22:23 GMT, James Chandler
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 
>> >1. The forms in -ita, -uta look too much like passives, and I must
>> > say I am surprised that Marcos doesn't see this as a native S
>> > speaker.
>>
>> In Spanish there are no passives in -ita, -uta.=3D20
>
>Don't you have them in -ida, -uda?  Maybe I'm misremembering.
 
We have -ido/a. Nor -it-, nor -ut-, nor -ud-.
 
>> >2. If you have -ita, -uta on the English model, why not also -ata?
>> > Then you would not need two different inf. endings.
>>
>> Adopting -ata has *two* problems:=3D20
>> 1. It produces a lot of unnaturalistic forms: akusata, argumentata,
>> admirata (instead of akusa, argumenta, admira...).=3D20
>> 2. The -AT- suffix is the passive suffix, so it can produce confusion
>> to have verbal roots ending in -at-.
>
>Yes, I know.  I just don't think ground forms in -ita, -uta are any
>better.
1. They are unfrecuent.
2. They don't collide with -AT- passive marker.
 
> Take for instance the N30 verbs SOLU, EVOLU.  These would
>become, under your plan, SOLUTA, EVOLUTA.  E speakers will associate
>these with E solute, evolute, which are *not* verbs and really have
>passive meanings (a solute is something that has been dissolved).
 
Once you know -A is a verb marker, you will not have problems with
these forms. That's not 1st_sight_recognition, I know, but as I've
already stated, there is a goal more important for me, and it is
after_1lesson_recognition. Perhaps I should have made clear this point
before, to show that those -ut- -it- are not a problem in my
novialide.
 
BTW, I don't think SOLU is more recognizable than SOLUT-.
And of course, SOLUTED is more recognizable than SOLUD.
 
>> By the way, learning verbs by its infinitive is the usual way to learn
>> them.
>
>Not in English, I don't think.  This may be true in Romance langs, but
>Novial's verb system is closer to the English, which is *precisely* what
>I like about it.
 
I've always studied english verbs by it's infinitives, but I don't
thing this is the matter. I repeat you my argument:
Now we have two different endings (for infinitive, only one for
present tense). Formerly we had four different endings. What's
simpler?
 
>> >4. The passive participles of -ita, -uta verbs are -itat, -utat,
>> > which really contain too marks of the passive and are v. unnatural.
>>
>> I repeat: the only mark of the passive in Novial is -AT-. We have:
>> Passives:       distributed     edited          poluted
>>                 distributat     editat          polutat
>
>I'm talking about what people think of as passive forms from national
>languages.  English is the only lang which has verbs in passive form,
>like distribute, pollute.  Your system is anglicized at the expense of
>Romance speakers.
 
I don't see any problem on it: don't you think distributat, editat,
polutat are more recognizable as passive participles for everyone that
distribut, edit or polut?
 
>
>> >5. Although the -er and -ar infs are natural enough, the -itar and
>> > -utar ones are really quite unnecessarily unnatural - a big step
>>
>> They are recognisable and they are consistent. Once we've reached this
>> goals, strict naturalism is not neccesary.
>
>Perhaps Ido distributar etc. are not too bad.  But definitar, rekognitar
>etc. are horrible.=20
 
As I stated, my system is not perfect, but you really are going to
very punctual words who doesn't have a "perfectly naturalistic form"
to criticize it. I don't think those are strong arguments, and BTW,
definitar, rekognitar keep on being recognizable. Besides, for some of
that forms, there is (I think) an alternative. Perhaps we should take
rekognisar, punisar... instead it's -it form. This is a decision I
haven't taken yet.
 
 Ido does not have forms like this.  You seem not
>to have grasped the most important point in all this: in a language as
>autonomistic as yours, why do you retain the (t)ione suffix at all?
 
You know: the spirit of Novial. A compromise between schematicism and
naturalism.
 
>> I take roots as ground forms. Then, you add the proper ending to form
>> the word (verb, noun, adverb, or whatever it be). This system works
>> right in Esp/Ido, so I won't change it.
>
>You are confusing the terms "root" and "ground form".  The root of a
>ground form in -a in this scheme is obtained by removing the -a.
 
What do you call the ground form? The present tense one?
 
>> >Advs in -im.
>>
>> I agree till here.
>>
>> >No -(t)ione suffix, and -ese or -eso instead of -itate.  -iv used
>> >as in Ido.
>>
>> I thought of that too. And it's an idea I don't refuse. But I've find
>> a way to achieve more naturalism, without disminishing schematicism as
>> traditional Novial does.
>
>I think your system is defective.  It is non-standard and an unhappy
>compromise in my eyes, just like Bruce's -r.
 
Both Bruce's and mine projects are consistent. But I find that Bruce's
-r appears on every sentence. My project's -it- (which seems to be
your main criticism) appears from time to time.
 
>> As you see, I disagree absolutely. I have already recognized my system
>> is not perfect (there's nothing perfect), but it has no important
>> critizable points (as would be -r for present tense, or lack of strict
>> PoS marking, etc).
>
>I am criticizing it.  I wish Bruce would calm down enough to give his
>own dissection of your ideas.  I think your system *is* criticizable.
 
I know it is. There is no perfect system. But I don't see you've found
*important* critizable points.
 
>> And, James, I sincerely think that you would agree with this if you
>> were not working on a project of your own.
>
>I'm not sure where this type of comment gets us.  I am working on my
>own project, because I have a very clear idea of how to get a standard
>form for semi-naturalistic languages.  Your ideas are a half-way house
>and seem fatally flawed to me, and until I see any better direction, I
>will stick with the one I'm currently working on.
 
Well, I don't know exactly how does your project go, but let me give
you a good advice: don't disregard strict PoS marking. You'll find a
lot of opposition if you do.
 
 
 
Saludos,
Marcos

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