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AUXLANG  February 1998, Week 4

AUXLANG February 1998, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Assorted Novial observations

From:

"Bruce R. Gilson" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 22 Feb 1998 05:04:49 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (152 lines)

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 
>At 00:59 22/2/98, Marcos Franco wrote:
>..........
>>In my project, I have unified all verbs, with the ending -A. Those
>>ones ending in -I or -U are transformed to fit in the new scheme:
>>puni => punita, distribu => distributa, evolu => evoluta, etc
>>Those ending in -E just get the -A: opine => opina, lekte => lekta,
>>etc.
 
>'distributa' reminds me of what we normally do in English if we borrow
>_directly_ from Latin, i.e. use the supine for the English verb: (to)
>distribute.
 
>>Now, for the -(t)ione matter, the suffix will be ever -atione. But
>>there are an alternative form (-ione) for those verbs which formerly
>>ended with -e -i -u (this is how we will keep the naturalistic form).
>>We have not to learn which verbs are those of -ione suffix because
>>they are the same as on our natlangs. Non-occidentals might use the
>>-atione always. That will give non-euroclonic words from them as
>>opinatione, distributatione, but I don't think that's problematic, and
>>they would learn by practice where the -ione suffix is advisable.
 
>But what if you used a system closer to English? The _uniform_ ending would
>be simply -IONE.  For example if, say, the infinitive suffix was -ER (Im
>*not* saying it should be), we would have:
 
>distributer     distributione
>evoluter        evolutione
>lekter          lektione
>skripter        skriptione
>formater        formatione
>etc.
 
I like this system much better than Marcos'. The  only advantage, in my eyes,
of the NN system is that our forms are shorter in those cases where the -ione
forms end in <vowel> + tione. And these shorter forms are closer to the natur-
ally occuring forms in a few languages (though, in most cases, this does not
apply to English).
 
>We could even accommadate 'oddities' like:
>opiner          opinione
 
>This would leave no optionally irregular alternatives.
>Just a thought.
 
I don't necessarily want to go back and undo a lot of work we've done over a
period of several months. I think if, perhaps, someone had proposed this
scheme to me in 1996, I might have adopted it. (Note the word _might_ here,
however. I cannot reconstruct my mental processes as of a year and a half ago.)
I think too much thought has gone into the system we _did_ adopt to scrub it
now.
 
[...]
 
 
>[BRUCE]
>>>>I do not like Marcus' solution, nor he mine. I am
>
>>The only arguments I've heard for you Bruce to not liking my solution
>>is that it goes on the opposite direction of yours. I don't think this
>>is a strong argument.
 
Not for anyone else. It is for me. I don't intend the argument that you
(Marcos) and I are going in opposite directions to _convince_ anyone that I'm
right and you wrong; I only state it to _explain_ why I am unwilling to accept
that plan.
 
When I was 11 years old I created my first IAL. It had -o/-a/-e as sex markers
(not entirely consistently: I accommodated a few exceptions like "pitza"=pizza
in that language. But there were probably no more than 4 nouns in the whole
language that did not end in the "right" vowel). When I was in my thirties, I
created another IAL. I was in collaboration with another person, so I could not
get my way on everything. But it used -o/-a/-e as sex markers. A little later
I discovered Intal. I was a bit distressed to discover that it used -u/-a/-o
in the version I first got, but happy to see that in later versions he went to
-o/-a/-e. When I discovered that almost everything I liked in Intal was antici-
pated in Novial, _including_ the -o/-a/-e applied to pronouns as well as to
nouns, I was happy to transfer my allegiance to Novial.
 
So I admit that this is a matter of personal taste. But when I find that a
particular feature of Novial _coincides_precisely_ with what I would build into
a language if I were starting from scratch, I am not about to change it, or to
look kindly upon someone else's plans to change it. Does this make my views
any clearer?
 
>Nor do I.  And from where I am, it doesn't seem that Marcos & Bruce are
>going in _opposite_ directions.  BOTH have started from Novial; BOTH are
>trying to bring in more schematicism, especially adding (fairly) consistent
>PoS.  Or have I missed something?
 
So far, you're right. Where I say opposite directions, I mean that in almost
every place where Marcos wants to _change_ something, it's something I _like_
about J's Novial and want to _keep_ it unchanged. And vice versa.
 
>On the other hand, both James Chandler & Jay Bowks do seem to be going in
>an opposite direction, i.e. towards "more naturalism".
 
I have not seen enough of James' changes to tell if this is true of him. He has
_argued_ in favor of keeping more of the changes toward naturalism that the
LJN introduced in the 1930s. But the language I see emerging from James looks,
to my eyes, _closer_ to what we are producing than Marcos' proposed language
does. James has adopted a few of the same changes we have (merging -u and -im
adverbs under -im, for example) and kept most of the same endings we did.
 
Jay, however, _does_ want a more naturalistic language. He is a partisan of
Interlingua, and it shows. I think that when we compare Jay's (and Phil Hunt's,
BTW: he is also in our group even as he continues to elaborate Eurolang)
suggestions, which go toward naturalism, with Dave Harris', which go further
toward schematism than _I_ really want, it becomes clear that in our group,
my positions are rather middle of the road: what changes we make go toward
more schematic in most cases, in the other direction (such as adopting {z})
in others.
 
 
>[ME]
>>>I have no preferred solution of my own; partly because I yet to be
>>>persuaded that (fairly) strict PoS marking is particularly desirable, and
>
>>Could you explain more about your position in this matter, Ray?
>>I think it would be interesting, in spite that I like strict PoS
>>marking.
 
>Basically because no natlang has felt the need for this.  Also, while the
>traditional Graeco-Latin division of words into the traditional "parts of
>speech" more or less still works for modern European languages (English, at
>least, IMO is certainly straining it), they seem less than satisfactory on
>a global basis.
 
As I've never felt that attempting to cater to the whole world can possibly
lead to a feasible IAL, and speakers of "modern European languages" are the
primary ones I want to accommodate, this argument is not valid in my own
efforts. But in any case, I've heard it said that even Chinese distinguishes
between nouns and verbs, though the traditional grammar does not formally make
it (traditional Chinese grammar considers only 2 parts of speech: full words
and particles).
 
>The argument put forward for PoS marking is that they provide 'sign-posts'
>to the 'sentence landscape'.  I think the judicious use 'particles' and
>'pointer words' can do this better.
 
I think this is a possibility. I would like to see someone try to do it. I
think Glosa tries, but I don't find that it works very well.
 
 
 
                                Bruce R. Gilson
                                email: [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
                                IRC: EZ-as-pi
                                WWW: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3141
                                (for language stuff: add /langpage.html)

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December 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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