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AUXLANG  February 1998, Week 4

AUXLANG February 1998, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Appropriateness of Marcos' entry on the Novial list

From:

"Bruce R. Gilson" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:39 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (143 lines)

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>At 15:02 24/2/98, Bruce R. Gilson wrote:
>>Some people seem to feel that I am being excessively harsh on Marcos for
>>making his proposals to the Novial list. I would like to call your attention
>>to the following, which was NOT written by me. It is on Don Blaheta's site,
>>which is our official site, and based on similar language written by Thomas
>>Leigh when _he_ had the site. I have not in any way dictated the words therein.
>>
>>   Our forum for doing this is a mailing list called NOVIAL, maintained
>>   by Don Blaheta. Anyone who wishes to join us in our work are welcome.
>>   The languages used on the list are English and Novial, but we would
>>   especially like input from people whose native language is other than
>>   English.
>
>I understand that.  Marcos' native language is not English; this says you'd
>especially like to hear from such people.
 
True. And I still wish we had more such people. When we have, in general, had
non-native-English speakers, unfortunately, they have tended to be people
unsympathetic to our goal, such as Kjell Rehnstroem and Marcos Franco. We did
have, until just recently, Jay Bowks on the list and some of his insights have
been useful. But even he was not truly committed to the goal toward which we
are headed.
 
I think it's clear that input from people whose native language is not English
is greatly to be desired. However, input from _anyone_, whatever their native
language, can only be welcome when given in a spirit of teamwork. When you, for
example, felt that your goal was at variance with ours, you accepted nonvoting
observer status, and as soon as you felt that your primary function, as source
for material out of NL, was no longer necessary, you left.
 
>>If you'd like to subscribe, send mail to
>>   [log in to unmask] with "subscribe novial My Name" in the
>>   text; to unsubscribe, send mail to the same address saying
>>   "unsubscribe novial". Those wishing to argue the merits of another IAL
>>   versus Novial and so forth are not invited, however, as there are
>>   other forums for such debates;
>
>Marcos has not argued the merits of another IAL versus Novial.  His
>proposals are at least as Novial-based as those of the N98 group.  If Bruce
>considers Marcos' proposals are a different IAL from Novial, he must then,
>if he is being logical & consistent, consider the N98 language a different
>IAL from Novial (which BTW I do).
 
Of course, the words were written at a time when no other Novial-based IAL was
being considered. However, I think that any reasonable interpretation of the
words "and so forth" in the above paragraph would include the case of arguing
the merits of another complete proposal (for this is what Marcos was doing, not
a discussion of one or another feature to be included) for a Novialide as
against ours. I take your point and I think perhaps Don needs to rework this
text a bit to make this clearer.
 
[...]
 
>>   Please note that decisions already made are considered final and
>>   will only be re-opened for debate if a majority of the group members
>>   vote to do so.
>
>How do you find out if a majority of member will vote to reopen a decision
>for debate unless some counter-proposal is made?  I remind you again of
>Marcos' acrual words:
>"If you find something interesting here, we can start to discuss it. If
>not, I will not bother anymore."
 
The way I have done it. I posted a note to the list saying "I think we need to
reopen the question of the comparative ending."
 
There are, at this point, a number of questions for reopening before the
proposal. When we request the reopening of a question, we do not attempt to
persuade, we merely say we _have_ a question to reopen. If Marcos had stated
that he wanted to reopen the question of the -r ending for verbs, I guarantee
that no more than one vote besides his own would have been cast to reopen it,
knowing the composition of the group. If Marcos had done it this way, he would
have _seen_ that there was no sympathy for his idea, and we would have been
spared a lot of angry posting.
 
>How does that conflict with what Bruce has quoted above?
 
Easy. He did not ask to reopen the decision on adding -r to verbs. He simply
_made_ a proposal that was counter to an already-made decision. This is against
our stated rules.
 
>>   Also, any people who feel they would like to join
>>   should make themselves as familiar as possible with Jespersen's
>>   language first (here are some Novial links).
>
>Marcos also conforms to this.
>
I did not say he did not. I did not say he violated EVERY rule. Only that he
violated two: he made an argument for a considerably different language than
ours, and he attempted to argue the merits of a question that was already
decided, without getting the consent of the majority for reopening the question
beforehand.
 
By contrast, I am _at_this_very_moment_ trying to gain a reopening of two
questions which I think were decided in a bad way. I've been waiting some
weeks. So far we have no majority to reopen. I don't go, as Marcos did, and
try to present the merits of my case before we get a majority to reopen. I'm
pretty frustrated that this new member, by not playing by the rules, gets the
entire list for 2 days almost totally devoted to a proposal that nobody but
its author has the slightest likelihood of approving, which would amount to a
total overhaul of the language, while I, one of the two original members and
a co-chairman of the group, cannot even get a discussion of one word I think
we need to change, because I'm playing by the rules.
 
>
>>
>>Marcos violated these rules in _two_ ways. First, he attempted to open up
>>discussion on topics which were already decided
>
>...only "if you find something interesting here".  "If not, I will not
>bother any more" seems to me an agreement to go by majority decision.
 
He put forth his whole complete program here. In order to do his complete
program, we would have to open up discussion on at least two decisions already
made. It was not appropriate for him to even state what his proposals were,
without getting approval to open those questions.
 
>>Then, he put forth a complete
>>proposal, different enough from our project that it certainly constitutes
>>a different language. Note that the rules clearly state that there is no
>>"argu(ing) the merits of another IAL" permitted.
>
>RUBBISH!
>
>Your rules say that no arguing the merits of another IAL versus _Novial_ is
>permitted.  Marcos did that no more than the N98 group itself.
 
Read my comments on "and so forth" above.
 
>If the rule should mean no arguing the merits of another IAL versus the N98
>language, then amend the rule so that people know where they stand.
 
A copy of this post is being directed to Don, although he is also on Auxlang
and should get it that way. I can accept the contention that it is unclear.
 
                                Bruce R. Gilson
                                email: [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
                                IRC: EZ-as-pi
                                WWW: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3141
                                (for language stuff: add /langpage.html)

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