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AUXLANG  February 1998, Week 4

AUXLANG February 1998, Week 4

Subject:

Rather: Appropriateness of Bruces reaction to Marcos' entry on the Novial list

From:

Jay Bowks <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:17:28 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (183 lines)

de: Bruce R. Gilson <[log in to unmask]>
ad: Multiple recipients of list AUXLANG
<[log in to unmask]>
Data: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 5:15 PM
Subjecto: Re: Appropriateness of Marcos' entry on the Novial
list
>We did
>have, until just recently, Jay Bowks on the list and some of
his insights have
>been useful. But even he was not truly committed to the goal
toward which we
>are headed.
>
 
My goal in being on the Novial list I've expressed several
times on Auxlang and on Novial-l. They were worthwhile
to me and I am disappointed that you found them lacking.
I was committed to working on producing a usable revision
of Novial... furthermore I was advocating consideration be
given to the international vocabulary shared in common
by the Romance langs and English and to a certain extent
German and Russian. I feel you make it sound like I was
trying to push the group in a different direction... And that
makes me laugh, Bruce, you keep using a plural first
person when I perceive you are speaking of your own
originality... after all wasn't one of the decisions reached
by the Novial Liste Grupe to ditch the Royal first person?
:-P
 
>I think it's clear that input from people whose native language
is not English
>is greatly to be desired.
 
And when it has been given it has been termed by you as
"radical"
and "undesirable", in my case, and in Marco's like it's not
worthy of
a response and "out of order".
 
>There are, at this point, a number of questions for reopening
before the
>proposal. When we request the reopening of a question, we do
not attempt to
>persuade, we merely say we _have_ a question to reopen. If
Marcos had stated
>that he wanted to reopen the question of the -r ending for
verbs, I guarantee
>that no more than one vote
 
What do you mean "one vote"... if only you and Don are allowed
to
call for votes then how can votes be accepted? Wouldn't you be
jumping at the chance to call this "out of order"? Please, be
serious,
Bruce, it just goes around and around "some people are more
equal than others" or treated as such, and if they leave the
list
you tell them that the list is better off without them... "more
unified"
--perhaps the farm was more unified without the chickens, but
I'm
not about to get my feathers plucked any further.
 
>besides his own would have been cast to reopen it,
>knowing the composition of the group. If Marcos had done it
this way, he would
>have _seen_ that there was no sympathy for his idea, and we
would have been
>spared a lot of angry posting.
>
 
The angry postings came from you Bruce, you make it sound like
the whole list objected, which is not the way I saw it, also I
cross
posted some of the discussions so Auxlang was somewhat aware
of what was going on. Marcos, to me, seemed asking for feedback
on ideas he'd been pondering and was willing to drop them if
indeed they were not followed up on the list. Go back and
re-read
his messages on a clear head, please.
 
>Easy. He did not ask to reopen the decision on adding -r to
verbs. He simply
>_made_ a proposal that was counter to an already-made decision.
This is against
>our stated rules.
>
 
Being a newbie to the list more leniency would have
been in order, perhaps a private message stating the
norms and expectations expressed in a civil and
welcoming manner would have made for friendly rather
than enemy projects.
 
>I did not say he did not. I did not say he violated EVERY rule.
Only that he
>violated two: he made an argument for a considerably different
language than
>ours, and he attempted to argue the merits of a question that
was already
>decided, without getting the consent of the majority for
reopening the question
>beforehand.
>
 
Again?  I feel this is one big catch 22, there is little chance
for a new subscriber to voice his fresh input and the minute
it is posted it is deemed unwelcomed and unwanted. Unless,
that is it is in full accord by Chairman Bruce.
 
>By contrast, I am _at_this_very_moment_ trying to gain a
reopening of two
>questions which I think were decided in a bad way. I've been
waiting some
>weeks.
 
So exactly how is Marcos, or any other member to know that
two issues you want revisited are up for votes on
reconsideration.
It seems to me this is a very covert and misleading way to
conduct a reconsideration of decisions made.
 
>So far we have no majority to reopen. I don't go, as Marcos
did, and
>try to present the merits of my case before we get a majority
to reopen.
 
Would you calm down and read over Marcos posts again?
I don't think he was forcing any issues, only asking for
feedback and suggestions on his ideas in regards to
improvements on Novial, Novial and not N98 per se,
it does not mean he wanted in any way to hijack the
project as you've accused him of doing.
 
>I'm pretty frustrated that this new member, by not playing by
the rules, gets the
>entire list for 2 days
 
On the fact that this issue held up the list for two
days, I feel, you are as much to blame if not more
so than he was.
 
>almost totally devoted to a proposal that nobody but
>its author has the slightest likelihood of approving, which
would amount to a
>total overhaul of the language, while I, one of the two
original members and
>a co-chairman of the group, cannot even get a discussion of one
word I think
>we need to change, because I'm playing by the rules.
>
 
if this has to do with "akusar/akuzar" I can understand
your frustration, it makes absolutely no sense to me
to have a root word with "s" and its derivatives with
"z" much too much like Zamenhof's choices of
fancy and not logically consistent, and we are not
talking "logical schematics" we're dealing with
"logical derivation according to natural use" :-)
 
>[...]
>                                Bruce R. Gilson
 
 
It is a truly sad day, Bruce, that you express frustration
at getting things your way in the Novial-l list, this coming
from me who is fully convinced you are eating your pie
ad nauseam, maybe it's not your favorite flavor, perhaps.
 
There yet may be several different modern flavors of
Novial, as indeed there were in the 30's. Now wouldn't
it be great if there were a list where Novialistes could
post their messages and translation practice exercises
in whatever flavor of Novial they desired, 28, 30, 37+
even Valter Ahlstedts and the lingue jurie's... Where
all members could read and perhaps feedback in
private about desirability of grammar, syntax and
vocab? Now wouldn't it, Bruce? Would you play if it
wasn't your ball?
 
Since,
Jay B.

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January 2002, Week 1
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
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