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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 1

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 1

Subject:

Re: James' Project to Reform Novial (fwd)

From:

James Chandler <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:06:23 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (88 lines)

Ray Brown skripted:
 
> >We have to achieve a balance.
> >Eliminating [z] causes more problems than it solves, in my view.  S speakers
> >have the advantage in my scheme, on the other hand, that all their words
> >which have [s] will predictably have [s] in my scheme as well.  This is a
> >great improvement on Esp and Ido.  Each group has to make sacrifices, but
> >on the whole we achieve the highest level of recognizability, familiarity
> >and phonetic facility for the greatest number.
>
> ...which is precisely what your scheme will _not_ do, at least as far as
> phonetic facility is concerned.
 
On that we disagree.
 
> I assume in the above you mean /z/ and /s/ and not [z] and [s], since
> Jespersen never eliminated the sound [z] only the morpheme [z].
 
Yes.  See my subsequent post.  But actually, J did later abolish the
sound [z], in 1934 Novial.
 
> I take the
> above to mean that wherever {s} is written in Spanish it will appear as {s}
> and be pronounced [s] (I mean [s]) in all environments.  This will mean
> that, e.g. French & English speakers will have to learn get used to /s/ in
> all these words where, more of often than not they use /z/.  It should be
> remembered that /z/ is far more often written as {s} in English & French
> than it is with the much less common {z}.
 
E F I speakers will have to get used to [s] in these words no more than
they will have to get used to [g] in words like GENERAL.  Why do you not
object to the latter difficulty, when the former is justified by many more
speakers of DEFISP ?
 
> The German & Italian must get out of the habit of pronouncing {s} as either
> [s] or [z] according to position and environment and of pronouncing {z} as
> [ts] (or, not uncommonly for the Italian, [dz]).
>
> Each group will indeed have to make sacrifices since, as far as I can see,
> your scheme conforms to the practice of no GR group.  The small (and IMO
> questionable) gain in familiarity of _written_ recognition will, I fear, be
> greatly offset by the increased phonetic difficulties & confusion.
 
What confusion?  How does my rule cause any more confusion that J's rule
for the letters G and J ?  Yes, each group will have to make sacrifices,
but if anything I think it could be argued that there will be fewer
difficulties for S speakers than for EFI speakers overall.  And we keep
our intern'l written forms for words spelt with Z and for words spelt with
S, while at the same time keeping Z reasonably rare.
 
> What's wrong with -uer if you don't like -ur.
> In Novial the present participle is -ent after -i- and -u-, one could have
> something similar for the infinitive.
 
The inf rule could not be comparable.  We would have to do as Occ, I
suppose, and start from the infinitive, removing -r or -er to get the
ground form, which is surely messier than just having an unadorned ground
form in all but the past tense.
 
> >The second is the
> >necessary stress shift in the infinitive, which is essential for Romance
> >speakers, but difficult for everyone else.
>
> How is it difficult?  I've never had the slightest difficulty; and I refuse
> to think I'm unique.
 
I refuse to believe that giving people the same root with different stresses
in different situations can be easier than that root having the same stress
throughout, *except* if that shift is know from one's own language.  And
from practical experience, I know it is hard to remember to say pOvas,
pOvas, pOvas, pOvas, povAr, which is about the frequency with which one
uses the inf. in Ido.
 
> >I'm hesitant about allowing productive use of this suffix.  I would like
> >to use it to bring new words into the language, like KOMPUTATORE.
>
> Meaning a 'computer' I asume - but based on what source language? The
> French is 'ordinateur' & the Spanish 'ordenador'.
 
We couldn't have something like ORDINATORE, because surely we want the
whole thing to start from the root "to compute", not "to order".  A
computer is not really something that only puts things in a particular
sequence.  As I say, this is a difficult case, and I think KOMPUTATORE
is a good semi-natural but regularly formed solution.
 
James Chandler
[log in to unmask]

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