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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 1

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 1

Subject:

Re: James' Project to Reform Novial (fwd)

From:

Marcos Franco <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:11:22 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (84 lines)

On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:54:56 GMT, James Chandler
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 
>> Ok, why don't you just take Z as a letter but not as a sound. This is
>> the easiest solution for the greatest number.
>
>This might mean two things: a) have only [s] but allow it to be written
>Z.  This would mean saying [s]ero, [s]one, for E zero, zone, which is =
not
>justifiable.
 
:-? Why not? You just assign /s/ to Z.
 
>b) have [s]/[z] as one phoneme, but allow this to be written either S or
>Z.  I don't think it's hard to see that this would be a huge embarras de
>richesse, and cause a fantastic amount of hesitation, confusion and =
chaos.
 
Of course. Nobody has suggested this.
 
>> The point is that /v/ is not difficult sound for us (in fact, some
>> Spaniards pronounce it on speech). No sound of Jespersen's Novial is
>> difficult for a Spanish. /z/ would be.
>
>I thought it was [b] that was hard for you to produce.  I was under the
>impression that in the mouths of many Spanish speakers, there was little
>or no distinction between how B and V are pronounced.
 
Usually not, but we can easily learn to pronounce /v/ differentiated
of /b/, which doesn't happen with /z/ differentitated of /s/.
 
>> >having to correct myself and pronounce [z] instead. =3D20
>>
>> Why? I thought J gave S the sound /s/ always, with /z/ just as a
>> secondary pronunciation. So you shouldn't hesitate on pronouncing S
>> always as /s/. :-?
>
>One of the points of making [s]/[z] one phoneme, is that EFI speakers =
can
>pronounce S as [z] between vowels where they naturally would in their =
own
>language.  When I come across PROPOSI and say it with [s] because I'm
>following the more usual value of S, I then stop and hesitate, because I
>know it sounds wrong and also know I am allowed to say [z].  It is =
really
>simpler for me just to say [s] and carry on.
 
Then do that, and be /z/ a secondary sound for S that you won't use.
 
>> Wait a minute! The preposition there is not a need, it's just that
>> some verbs get "a" when a infinitive follows, some not. There is no
>> reason for it. Just a matter of tradition. BTW, is really "to" a
>> marker of infinitive in English? Or just a preposition?:
>> I want to dance: want to          dance (to=3D3Dprep.)
>>                 want             to dance (to=3D3Dinf.mark.)=3D20
>>
>> But it seems "to" is more adhered to want that to dance, cause we
>> have: I don't want to. Right?
>
>AFAIK, "to" now has two clearly separate roles in E, as a preposition =
and
>as an infinitive marker.  "to" started out as just a preposition, but
>presumably was prefixed illogically to the infinitive in order to
>strengthen it.
 
Perhaps, but in practice we can understand "to" as a preposition
everywhere, as I explained above. Couldn't be "to" as infinitive
marker a wrong interpretation of it?
 
>What you say is a matter of tradition, I see as something which has
>grown up because of a real need in the language.  Most human language is
>tradition, if your definition is to be applied to it.
 
Well, I don't see the real need. It's just that some verbs take the
preposition when an infinitive follows, some not. When there is prep.,
it doesn't mean anything, it's just a nexus. This double-way is just
one irregularity more (with no particular justification), which should
not be kept on a IAL.
 
 
 
Saludos,
Marcos

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December 1997, Week 5
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