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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 1

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 1

Subject:

Re: James' Project to Reform Novial (fwd) 2

From:

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:24:10 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (117 lines)

At 19:58 2/3/98, James Chandler wrote:
>Ray Brown skripted:
>
>> >- I don't think the inclusion of the sound /z/ is a good idea at all.
>> >It's difficult to pronounce for S-speakers, and possibly for many
>> >other people. This is like esperanto H^. It's easy for me to
>> >pronounce, but I wouldn't include it in any IAL simply cause there is
>> >a lot of people who has trouble with it.
>>
>> I agree with Marcos 100%.
>> Ignore the Scandinavians if you must (tho I think you shouldn't), but an
>> actual natIAL like Spanish should not be done lightly.
>
>I am not ignoring the Scandinavians completely.  But their numbers are v.
>small compared to S speakers, so it is mainly the latter who will
>influence the debate in the direction of dropping the [s]/[z] distinction.
>
>> Personally I agree with Marcos about its being inappropriate in any IAL. I
>> certainly couldn't take such an conIAL seriously.
>
>I must say I don't understand the strength of this objection.  To say you
>find the [s]/[z] distinction so awful you could not take seriously any
>IAL which retains it is really v. extreme.  In my view, making [s]/[z] one
>phoneme, and spelling everything with S, as J did, is not an unreasonable
>way to proceed.  I just think it would be better, on the whole, to
>reintroduce this distinction, which only S does not know,
 
This is not true.  Italian, e.g. does not distinguish the two as separate
phonemes, which is what we are talking about here.
 
>and most
>importantly to introduce the letter Z in writing, to preserve the intern'l
>written forms of no few important words.  We distinguish between [b] and
>[v]: would Ray also be unable to take seriously any IAL which retained
>that distinction?
 
No.  The situation is not parallel at all.  You seem to be confusing phones
with phonemes.
 
[.....]
>> >Yes, I've already prevented from the use of "tu" in any way that is
>> >not pers.pronoun. It's a bad false friend.
>>
>> AMEN.
>>
>> >I simply go with the natural -r.
>>
>> AMEN - so would I.
>
>-(e)r seems to have more problems than TU.
 
You have to be joking!
 
>Why do Romance langs often need
>to supplement -r with a preposition: because the ending is not strong
>enough?  Best to follow E here.
 
Oh dear!  <sigh>
 
If course it's strong enough, so strong in fact that they Romancelangs use
it where we use the English "gerund".  _That_ is why it's often governed by
a preposition.  The infinitive is a verbal _noun_.  Those languages that
possess it & have it marked use it exploit it's _full_ use as a noun
including allowing prepositions to goven it.  In English we allow the
infinitive only to function as subject or object of a verb, or the
complement of a copulative verb.  If we want to have a preposition
governing a verbal noun we have to use the gerund; indeed, _our_ infinitive
is so week we often use the gerund as the subject or object even tho the
infinitive is possible.
 
To fish is permitted/ fishing is permitted.  (subj.)
He likes to fish/ He likes fishing  (obj)
He is fond of fishing.  (governed by a preposition).
 
The Romancelangs can & do use the infinitive in all three constructions;
they do not need _another_ verbal noun to sit along side it.
 
But persist with the English idiom if you wish!
 
[yo /me]
>> >I'm surprised with this. From my point of view this is really
>> >unnecessary and confussionish.
>>
>> AMEN - I was just as surprised at this as Marcos.  I agree it is
>> unnecessary and will lead to confusion.
>
>Whether it is necessary or not depends on where you are positioning yourself
>in the schematic/natural spectrum.  But certainly I don't want to establish
>any *compulsory* distinctions between nom. and acc.   I am wondering
>whether it wouldn't be best to ditch ME and use YO everywhere:
 
Ych y fi!
 
>certainly
>using the nom. form in the acc. would be no more strange than using the
>acc. form in the nom.
 
Who's using the accusative form in the nominative?  In a language where
pronouns do _not_ decline (and there are plenty of them), such things are
meaningless.
 
Ray.
 
=======================================================
Written in Net English     Humor not necessarily marked
 
SORRY FOR DELAY IN REPLYING - REPLIES WRITTEN ON 2ND &
3RD MARCH
MY INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER DIDN'T LET ME LINK UP TO
THE OUTSIDE WORLD ON TUEDAY, 3RD MARCH OR
WEDNESDAY, 4TH MARCH
 
GUESS I MUST THINK ABOUT ANOTHER ISP.
 
Gerasko d'aei polla didaskomenos (SOLON)
=======================================================

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