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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 1

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 1

Subject:

Re: James' Project to Reform Novial (fwd) 3

From:

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:24:23 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (230 lines)

At 20:35 2/3/98, James Chandler wrote:
>Ray Brown skripted:
[.....]
>> In any case, I do agree with Jay that TU is not a good choice for the
>> infinitive both for the reason he gives and because it adds an unnecessary
>> complication: one will have to give rules as to when the infinitive is to
>> be unmarked and when to mark it with TU (NLG has yet to do this with its
>> AT).
>
>I don't see the necessity to give hard and fast rules, any more than we
>would have to give them for an -(e)r ending.
 
The two things are *NOT* comparable.  The "rule" for -(e)r is simply that
if we have an infinitive, that is it's suffix.
 
TU is _not_ marking all occurrences of the infinitive, unless you're going
to use it differently from English & J's Novial.  In English _some_
infinitives are preceeded by "to" are some are not.  This is a complication
foreigners have to learn when they learn English.  IT IS AN EXTRA
COMPLICATION.  If you wish to include this Anglicism, go ahead; but please
don't be surprised when it gets criticized.
 
>J gives some guidelines,
 
.... but in the end, _he_ dropped TU entirely.
 
>but
>I don't see how it hurts to allow freedom here.  Presumably, people won't
>use the extra TU if they do not feel the need.
 
That is a recipe for confusion.
 
[....]
>
>It will certainly not do that.  It *will* confer two important advantages
>upon Romance speakers, but will do so at the expense of much increased
>difficulty for everyone else.
>
That is tripe.
 
_ALL_ the GR languages. except English, have a marked infinitive!  It is
you who refuse _one_ _simple_ system for the infinitive & want to
perpetuate the English system of marked & unmarked infinitives.
 
[...]
>
>This irregularity is justified if we feel the -EN ending is too heavy on
>plural possessives.  Anyway, I am proposing -I optionally: if -N stays
>for the singulars, -EN will still be permitted for the plurals.
>
>> >You know I approve of NOS.  But as I say, NOR, VUR are arbitrary.  And
>> >the final -R is hard to pronounce for some, as always.
>>
>> I agree with Jay on both accounts.
>
>Didn't I say this??  I think you mean you agree with *me* on both accounts.
 
I don't know - the quoted, quoted quotes get confusing.  I do _not_ like
the irregular system of gen. sing in -N and gen,plural in -R.
 
>
>> >I can't use -i for the singulars, because it is not possible after a and
>> >o: we would have LOI, LAI, which are not acceptable.
>>
>> Why are are LOI and LAI unacceptable?  They're easy enough to say.
>
>Are they?
 
Yes.  I have no difficulty in distinguishing, e.g. 'boy' /boi/ and 'buy'
[bai]; maybe you do.
 
>They naturally form diphthongs in a way that E+I and U+I don't
>seem to.
 
This is simply bad phonology.  E+I and U+I form diphthongs just as
"naturally" as A+I and O+I.  Indeed, [ei] is very common in English, cf.
say [sei], may [mei], make [meik], fate [feit] etc. etc.
 
[ui] is less common but certainly not unknown. Apart from Esperanto {uj}
and the Slav langs we find the diphthong in French & Welsh.
 
> I can't see the O or A and I being kept apart in LOI, LAI, which
>means they become monosyllabic, which is not what I want.
 
You did not say that nor explain why you do not wish them to be
monosyllabic even tho you happily accept the monosyllable MEN, VUN, LON,
LAN, LEN, NOR, VUR, LOR, LAR, LER etc. This seems quite inconsistent to me.
 
>Ido MEA, VUA
>etc. work precisely because the -A does not merge with the preceding vowel,
>and so these words are disyllabic, with the stress in E or U.
 
The 'stress', as you put it, would still be on the first vowel in LAI, LOI
etc., exactly as it would in MEI and VUI.  They will all be _falling_
diphthongs.
 
 
[....]
>> Personally I think -anti is better & the French sound is /a~t/, i.e. it is
>> /a/ not /e/, only the vowel is nasalized.  It's the /n/ that disappears in
>> =46rench!
>
>I'm not so sure.  Isn't F -ante pronounced more with "o" than "a" ?
 
No - only by anglophones who can't distingish 'an' from 'on'.
 
[.....]
>
>Why do you think J abandoned the Esp dudek etc. at all?
 
I don't think - I've _read_ it in AIL.
 
But I don't think Jespersen was infallible; nor, of course, do you,
otherwise you'd not be changing his language.
 
[....]
>> >> of substantive/noun form. I don't like the use of
>> >> the -o if there is already a rule to have all substantives
>> >> end in -e, except optionally when these end in -um.
>>
>> I agree - if one is to have PoS then either nouns end in -e or they don't.
>
>Why?  Surely it is better for 95% of sbs to take the regular -e than 90%,
>even if we can't use it on 100%.
 
Good grief!
Either you have PoS marking or you don't!
 
[....]
>
>> >There is certainly justification from natlangs for this use of infinitives
>> >or ground forms as sbs.  But in a way I thought this a radical step, and
>> >I would like to let usage decide, so I am leaving -o in place for now but
>>
>> I find nothing 'radical' about using the infinitive this way.  The
>> Romancelangs have been doing it for centuries.  On the other hand I see no
>> justification for the now irregular -o (nor the clumsy NLG -nse).
>
>Why is -o now irregular?  Ido uses its regular sb ending universally to
>derive vbsbs.
 
Forgive me, but I was under the impression that Ido used -o as the marker
of _all_ nouns just as Esperanto does.  The Ido -o has NOTHING to do with
this!
 
I'm _trying_ to understand your scheme.  I _thought_ you wanted PoS
marking; I thought that nouns epicene & sexless nouns were marked by -e.
Therefore, if I find such a noun being marked by -o, <duh> I think it's
irregular.
 
Clearly I misunderstood what you mean by PoS marking.
 
[.....]
>at all.  Actually, I thought I would get protests at suggesting dropping
>-o at all.  I might point out, by the way, that N98 cannot evolve in this
>way, because it would have to add -es onto its already heavy -r with
>vbsbs.
 
I'm not interested with what N98 can & cannot do.
 
[......]
>>
>> ..and there'll still be confusion if it's compulsory.  How will you say "It
>> is me?"
>> Will you follow French "c'est moi" or Spanish "soy yo"?
>
>I won't make YO compulsory.  If in doubt, ME would always be correct.
>
>> To those of us lucky to be familiar with Celticlangs, there's nothing
>> "unnatural" about 'me' as subject.  But why introduce this _one_
>> irregularity?  Esperanto manages quite well with 'mi' as subject form and
>> that conIAL does enjoy some success.
>
>I am *not* basing any part of my language on anything that might have had
>some small amount of usage in Esp.  But actually, I think Celtic langs are
>not really that relevant: my concern is that speakers of DEFISP find ME
>very unnatural as subject.  It is deeply rooted as an object pronoun.
 
....and the verbs "to be" & "to go" are 'deeply rooted' as irregular in all
the DEFISP languages.  Can we look forward to optional irregular forms for
them as well to make things 'more natural' for DEFISP speakers?
 
 
[....]
>
>> >Is FICAR a bona fide P vb ?  It's news to me.  I don't know what you mean
>> >by "I see FIKA as a compound vb".  A compound of what?  To me it's a suffix
>> >gone mad.
>>
>> 'ficar' is a bona fide Portuguese verb.
>> Nor is 'fika' a suffix in Novial Lexike, it is a full verb.
>
>By that token, all those Esp suffixes are full verbs.
 
Not it *not* by the same token.  Jespersen does *NOT* allow his affixes to
be used as free morphemes.  FIKA is quite explicitly listed as a _full_
verb in Novial Lexike.
 
>I am interested in
>the origin of FIKA, and the idea J might have got it partly from P is
>certainly news to me.
 
As my sig. say: Gerasko d'aei polla didaskomenos.
 
>> I don't see any problem with it - but I see lots with 'renda'.
>
>What problems with RENDA?  It's fine for E F speakers, at least.
 
French: RENDRE = to restore, give back, give [something] up, yield,
surrender [transitive], etc.
 
If you think RENDA will be fine for F speakers at least, I guess you really
can't see any problems!
 
Ray.
 
=======================================================
Written in Net English     Humor not necessarily marked
 
SORRY FOR DELAY IN REPLYING - REPLIES WRITTEN ON 2ND &
3RD MARCH
MY INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER DIDN'T LET ME LINK UP TO
THE OUTSIDE WORLD ON TUEDAY, 3RD MARCH OR
WEDNESDAY, 4TH MARCH
 
GUESS I MUST THINK ABOUT ANOTHER ISP.
 
Gerasko d'aei polla didaskomenos (SOLON)
=======================================================

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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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