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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 1

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 1

Subject:

Re: James' Project to Reform Novial (fwd) 4

From:

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:24:40 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (142 lines)

At 21:06 2/3/98, James Chandler wrote:
[...]
>
>Yes.  See my subsequent post.  But actually, J did later abolish the
>sound [z], in 1934 Novial.
 
No he doesn't.
The phonemic theory wasn't so generally accepted in 1934 & J doesn't make
the modern distinction beteen, say, [z] and /z/.  But if you care to read
the footnotes of Novialiste 1, 1943 (which is what I assume you're
referring to), you'll find:
"Pro ke li voisat suone [z] non exista kom tali li fonologial sisteme de N,
nul detrimente existaska si angle o franse prununtia [z] ex. in _desira_, o
si germane dikte [zume] insted [sume].  Novial non es pedanti sisteme."
 
[....]
>> I take the
>> above to mean that wherever {s} is written in Spanish it will appear as {s}
>> and be pronounced [s] (I mean [s]) in all environments.  This will mean
>> that, e.g. French & English speakers will have to learn get used to /s/ in
>> all these words where, more of often than not they use /z/.  It should be
>> remembered that /z/ is far more often written as {s} in English & French
>> than it is with the much less common {z}.
>
>E F I speakers will have to get used to [s] in these words no more than
>they will have to get used to [g] in words like GENERAL.  Why do you not
>object to the latter difficulty, when the former is justified by many more
>speakers of DEFISP ?
 
For goodness sake - [g] and [Z]/[dZ] are *NOT* similar sounds, one being
the voiced form of the other!! Perhaps no one has pointed that out.
 
THESE ARE *NOT* PARALLEL PROBLEMS.
 
In many languages [s] & [z] are or have been allphones of the same phoneme.
 
>
>> The German & Italian must get out of the habit of pronouncing {s} as either
>> [s] or [z] according to position and environment and of pronouncing {z} as
>> [ts] (or, not uncommonly for the Italian, [dz]).
>>
>> Each group will indeed have to make sacrifices since, as far as I can see,
>> your scheme conforms to the practice of no GR group.  The small (and IMO
>> questionable) gain in familiarity of _written_ recognition will, I fear, be
>> greatly offset by the increased phonetic difficulties & confusion.
>
>What confusion?
 
I've tried to spell it out.  Take a proper look, please, at French, Italian
& German practice.
 
>How does my rule cause any more confusion that J's rule
>for the letters G and J ?
 
G and J are by no stretch of any reasonable mind parallel to the S/Z
distinction.  I cannot even begin to understand why you think they are.
Your phonology is clearly different from mine.
 
[.....]
>
>> What's wrong with -uer if you don't like -ur.
>> In Novial the present participle is -ent after -i- and -u-, one could have
>> something similar for the infinitive.
>
>The inf rule could not be comparable.
 
Why not???!!!!
 
By what stroke of "natural Chandlerite law" can the rule for -R/ -ER in an
infinitive ending not be comparable to a rule for -NT/ -ENT in the present
participle?  I'm sorry - I just do not follow this at all.
 
>We would have to do as Occ, I
>suppose, and start from the infinitive, removing -r or -er to get the
>ground form,
 
Why?
 
>which is surely messier than just having an unadorned ground
>form in all but the past tense.
 
Sorry - I just don't follow this.
 
[.....]
>
>I refuse to believe that giving people the same root with different stresses
 
I notice there are many things you refuse to believe.  But then I've had
only 40 odd years of looking at different langs - I suppose it must be all
those Slavic and <horror> non-European languages that have corrupted me. I
bow to your superior knowledge
 
>in different situations can be easier than that root having the same stress
>throughout, *except* if that shift is know from one's own language.  And
>from practical experience, I know it is hard to remember to say pOvas,
>pOvas, pOvas, pOvas, povAr, which is about the frequency with which one
>uses the inf. in Ido.
 
And everything is to be judged by Ido!  Never mind the actual experience of
Romance speakers.
 
[.....]
>> Meaning a 'computer' I asume - but based on what source language? The
>> French is 'ordinateur' & the Spanish 'ordenador'.
>
>We couldn't have something like ORDINATORE, because surely we want the
>whole thing to start from the root "to compute", not "to order".
 
Of course, silly me.  I should've known the French & Spanish would
misunderstand things; I'd forgotten they're only f**gs & d*g**s.  Silly me!
 
> A
>computer is not really something that only puts things in a particular
>sequence.
 
Nor, as far as 'the person in the street' is concerned, is it something
that computes.
 
Rather despondently,
Ray.
 
PS - I've now made 4 different replies to James' points, and I'm very weary.
 
I think my position is clear.  I do NOT want to get into yet another
protracted neo-Novialite exchange.  I offered criticism constructively.  If
James or any one else does not want to make use of them, so be it.
 
 
=======================================================
Written in Net English     Humor not necessarily marked
 
SORRY FOR DELAY IN REPLYING - REPLIES WRITTEN ON 2ND &
3RD MARCH
MY INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER DIDN'T LET ME LINK UP TO
THE OUTSIDE WORLD ON TUEDAY, 3RD MARCH OR
WEDNESDAY, 4TH MARCH
 
GUESS I MUST THINK ABOUT ANOTHER ISP.
 
Gerasko d'aei polla didaskomenos (SOLON)
=======================================================

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