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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Pronouns in Novial Pro

From:

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:06:41 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (114 lines)

Quoth Marcos Franco:
> Revising Novial's scheme for pronouns, I've felt that a fair
> improvement is possible. First, I start from the point that a
> differentiation between pronouns refered to humans and pronouns
> non-refered to humans is necessary. J's also felt this necessity so he
> took -u for denoting "thing", and the noun ending -e for "person" (le,
> lu; irge, irgu).
 
Note that this is an N30 innovation; in N28 all neuters were in -um, not
just the abstract ones.  Also note that the line appears to be drawn
differently than in English; our "it" and related neuter forms refer to
anything for which gender doesn't really matter in the context of the
current discussion, although to use "it" of sentient adults is generally
considered insulting (or just misunderstood entirely).  Anyway, my point
is, we have a large class of nouns which can be gendered animate or
neuter/inanimate, to which we may refer as "it", which in Novial (de J)
should be referred to with the animate suffixes.  So le/la/lo doesn't
mean "person" so much as "animate thing", at least as I understand
things.
 
> This need is also very evident on "que" (what & who), but I've not
> found "quu",
 
-U is just an awkward and badly chosen ending.  It was not introduced
until N30; James has dropped it entirely and the N98 group has made it
"optional" (which effectively means it will only ever be used on LU,
HU/DISU, and TU [with the entire bag of worms that _that_ opens up...
but let's not argue that here]).
 
-UM, however, is still available to distinguish animacy.  QUUM is less
awkward, and is even quoted in AIL as a useful word (in constructions
like "Pro quum?").
 
> so it seems that Novial gets into "que" both "what" and "who", which
> is certainly clumsy. In Novial Pro, as -a/o are not reserved for sex
> marking, I take -o for things, so "que" will be "who" and "quo" will
> be "what".
 
Please allow me to express some concern....  On the one hand, making the
distinction in the suffix is a very sensible thing to do.  On the other
hand, using -O to represent inanimacy is a very poor choice, imo.
(Though, admittedly, it could be worse--this allows you to leave the
vbsb suffix unchanged, which is nice.)
 
> On what concerns to personal pronouns, they will be:
> Me, vu (or tu), ile, ila, ilo, ilum;  nos, vus, iles, ilas, ilos.
 
When you say "or tu", what does that mean?  That you haven't decided
yet, that it will be user's choice, or that you have some semantic
distinction between the two?  If the first, I have no fundamental
complaints--TU is not inherently better or worse than VU in this
meaning--although you would collide with the infinitival TU (but then,
you will be using -R for that, so it doesn't matter so much).  If the
second or third, I think that you are probably making it too complex.
 
Nos: good.
 
Le/Ile:  It's a valid tradeoff that you've made, although you should
recognize that you _have_ made a tradeoff here: you have traded
convenience for recog.  That is, ILE etc. are more recognizable, but
less convenient, since they're two syllables.  But other than that,
they're nice!
 
> Note that on third person sex differentiation is needed, so I've opted
> for -a (fem.) -e (masc.), which, by the way, give naturalistic forms.
 
Didn't you say you were abandoning AEO as gender marking?  Or are you
special-casing the pronouns (which may be valid, I'm just asking)?
 
> A remarkable point is that the i- on third person is elidible (like
> the -u in Ido). This will be particularly pleasant to be used when the
> personal pronouns act as object, as _le, la, lo, les, las, los_ are
> the natural forms in Spanish and other romance languages.
 
Are there only certain environments in which one can elide the I-, or
can it be removed arbitrarily?
 
> I've also been working on interrogatives/relatives, looking for the
> simplest system possible. This is what I've got:
>
> Source adj,     Interrog.       Relative
> pron, adv.      adj,pr,adv      adj,pr,adv
>
> tem     >       quitem          > kuitem        when
> lok     >       quilok          > kuilok        where
> tal(x)  >       qual(x)         > kual(x)       which
> talim   >       qualim          > kualim        how
> tant(x) >       quant(x)        > kuant(x)      how much/many
> -e      >       que             > kue           who
> -o      >       quo             > kuo           what
> -i      >       qui             > kui           what (+ noun)
 
Why KU-?  This removes the distinction from the spoken form; also, you
can no longer say that /kw/ is always written QU.  (There are other
infelicities between the spoken and written language, but I thought it
was nice that QU was universal and KU never appeared.)
 
> It's occured to me that "tem" and "lok" could be used beside "kuitem"
> and "kuilok" (N's tand & vor). They are very comfortable and I think
> no confussion can arise:
> Tem me vided vu, me saluted vu.
> Ile troved lo lok me dikted.
 
Hmm... first of all, KITEM = KAND, not TAND; it's not clear to me
why VOR can be either QUILOK or KILOK, but that at least seems true.  As
for just using TEM and LOK, it would probably work, but it would be less
readable/understandable imo because you lose the relative clause opener
which everywhere else is K-.
 
--
-=-Don [log in to unmask]<http://www.cs.brown.edu/~dpb/>-=-
"This is such a wonderful conversation, and very important."
                                                        --Cathy Veal

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January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
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July 2002, Week 1
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June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
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March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
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February 1998, Week 1
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January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 3
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March 1997, Week 1
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February 1997, Week 1

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