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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: James' Project to Reform Novial (fwd) 3 (fwd)

From:

James Chandler <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:31:58 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (184 lines)

Ray Brown skripted:
 
> >I don't see the necessity to give hard and fast rules, any more than we
> >would have to give them for an -(e)r ending.
>
> The two things are *NOT* comparable.  The "rule" for -(e)r is simply that
> if we have an infinitive, that is it's suffix.
 
In what planned language is that the rule for -(e)r ?  As far as I can
see, I would not be bound to adopt that rule if I took -(e)r.  It is
true that Ahlstedt used -(e)r where Romance langs use it, but that
doesn't mean -(e)r would have to be compulsory e.g. in ME VA VIDA.  Why
would we *have* to use -r there?
 
> TU is _not_ marking all occurrences of the infinitive, unless you're going
> to use it differently from English & J's Novial.
 
TU would not mark all occurences of the "infinitive" in my system, at least
not compulsorily.
 
> In English _some_
> infinitives are preceeded by "to" are some are not.  This is a complication
> foreigners have to learn when they learn English.  IT IS AN EXTRA
> COMPLICATION.  If you wish to include this Anglicism, go ahead; but please
> don't be surprised when it gets criticized.
 
You are criticizing my idea based on a rule you have created for me.  I
am saying that there would be great freedom in using TU, so it wouldn't
be wrong to say LO POVE TU VADA, or PARLA STRANJERI LINGUE ES PLU FASIL
KAM SKRIPTE.  We might recommend not using TU in the first, and using it
in the second example.  But where is the complication?
 
> >J gives some guidelines,
>
> .... but in the end, _he_ dropped TU entirely.
 
I am not entirely against this idea, but I would rather retain some mark
for the moment.  And I cannot accept -(e)r.
 
> >but
> >I don't see how it hurts to allow freedom here.  Presumably, people won't
> >use the extra TU if they do not feel the need.
>
> That is a recipe for confusion.
 
I must say I don't see why.
 
> >It will certainly not do that.  It *will* confer two important advantages
> >upon Romance speakers, but will do so at the expense of much increased
> >difficulty for everyone else.
> >
> That is tripe.
>
> _ALL_ the GR languages. except English, have a marked infinitive!  It is
> you who refuse _one_ _simple_ system for the infinitive & want to
> perpetuate the English system of marked & unmarked infinitives.
 
You seem to be saying that I need a hard and fast rule: either no marker,
or compulsory marker in all cases, or compulsory marker where E has one.
But why can we not allow some flexibility?  I am perfectly happy with
ME VA LEKTE, ME POVE/MUS/DARFA LEKTE, and even the PARLA, SKRIPTE example
above.  Then people can use TU to strengthen these where they feel the
need.
 
> >Didn't I say this??  I think you mean you agree with *me* on both accounts.
>
> I don't know - the quoted, quoted quotes get confusing.  I do _not_ like
> the irregular system of gen. sing in -N and gen,plural in -R.
 
I personally do not care for -R here.
 
> >> >I can't use -i for the singulars, because it is not possible after a and
> >> >o: we would have LOI, LAI, which are not acceptable.
> >>
> >> Why are are LOI and LAI unacceptable?  They're easy enough to say.
> >
> >Are they?
>
> Yes.  I have no difficulty in distinguishing, e.g. 'boy' /boi/ and 'buy'
> [bai]; maybe you do.
 
No, *I* don't.  But these are natural diphthongs and I don't want those
where it is not necessary.
 
> >They naturally form diphthongs in a way that E+I and U+I don't
> >seem to.
>
> This is simply bad phonology.  E+I and U+I form diphthongs just as
> "naturally" as A+I and O+I.  Indeed, [ei] is very common in English, cf.
> say [sei], may [mei], make [meik], fate [feit] etc. etc.
>
> [ui] is less common but certainly not unknown. Apart from Esperanto {uj}
> and the Slav langs we find the diphthong in French & Welsh.
 
I think we could get away with EI and UI more easily.  But on the whole,
I suppose I would like to avoid -I after any vowel.  -N is much better.
 
> > I can't see the O or A and I being kept apart in LOI, LAI, which
> >means they become monosyllabic, which is not what I want.
>
> You did not say that nor explain why you do not wish them to be
> monosyllabic even tho you happily accept the monosyllable MEN, VUN, LON,
> LAN, LEN, NOR, VUR, LOR, LAR, LER etc. This seems quite inconsistent to me.
 
I wasn't objecting to monosyllables, just the merging of the derivative -I
with the preceding vowel, forming a monosyllable.
 
> >I'm not so sure.  Isn't F -ante pronounced more with "o" than "a" ?
>
> No - only by anglophones who can't distingish 'an' from 'on'.
 
Well, this is not really so important.  SP makes more that FI, so SP
wins in any case.
 
> >Why do you think J abandoned the Esp dudek etc. at all?
>
> I don't think - I've _read_ it in AIL.
>
> But I don't think Jespersen was infallible; nor, of course, do you,
> otherwise you'd not be changing his language.
 
But I do think he was right on this point.  This problem was addressed
in Ido in 1907.
 
> >Why?  Surely it is better for 95% of sbs to take the regular -e than 90%,
> >even if we can't use it on 100%.
>
> Good grief!
> Either you have PoS marking or you don't!
 
This depends on your conception of word marking.
 
> >Why is -o now irregular?  Ido uses its regular sb ending universally to
> >derive vbsbs.
>
> Forgive me, but I was under the impression that Ido used -o as the marker
> of _all_ nouns just as Esperanto does.  The Ido -o has NOTHING to do with
> this!
 
You ought to read up about Couturat's ideas on derivation.  There is
nothing arbitrary or incidental about the vbsb being derived with -O.
 
> I'm _trying_ to understand your scheme.  I _thought_ you wanted PoS
> marking; I thought that nouns epicene & sexless nouns were marked by -e.
> Therefore, if I find such a noun being marked by -o, <duh> I think it's
> irregular.
>
> Clearly I misunderstood what you mean by PoS marking.
 
I have said before I think we can have marking of word groups, not just
Ps OS.  Verbal nouns are a distinct group, so I see no problem with them
not ending in -e.
 
> >my concern is that speakers of DEFISP find ME
> >very unnatural as subject.  It is deeply rooted as an object pronoun.
>
> ....and the verbs "to be" & "to go" are 'deeply rooted' as irregular in all
> the DEFISP languages.  Can we look forward to optional irregular forms for
> them as well to make things 'more natural' for DEFISP speakers?
 
I don't think these cases are quite the same.  But I take your point, and
I have decided to drop this proposal.  We will stick with ME.
 
> >By that token, all those Esp suffixes are full verbs.
>
> Not it *not* by the same token.  Jespersen does *NOT* allow his affixes to
> be used as free morphemes.  FIKA is quite explicitly listed as a _full_
> verb in Novial Lexike.
 
My point was that, whatever the status of FIKA, I am interested in its
justification.  Until this revelation about P ficar, I thought it was
quite as arbitrary as all those Esp suffix-words.
 
> >What problems with RENDA?  It's fine for E F speakers, at least.
>
> French: RENDRE = to restore, give back, give [something] up, yield,
> surrender [transitive], etc.
 
E render also has another meaning.  But that is not the meaning I am
taking, and in context it shouldn't cause confusion.
 
James Chandler
[log in to unmask]

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December 2000, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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