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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: James' Project to Reform Novial (fwd) 3 (fwd)

From:

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:18:06 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (91 lines)

At 00:38 11/3/98, Julian Pardoe wrote:
[Me]
>> <GROAN>  Either you mark an infinitive affix or you don't.
>> If you're going to have an infinitive affix which sometimes
>> gets stuck on your word and sometimes doesn't then you're
>> doing something I've not come across in any natlang or
>> conlang.
 
{Julian]
>In general I agree with you, but I do think that it would be
>acceptable to use a markerless infinitive with a _limited_
>number of "auxiliary verbs" like 'va'.  One could after all call
>these adverbs or "particles".
 
Indeed "va" is quite clearly a temporal adverb in the N98 version, as is
"did", since both may be used before _adjectives_ (e.g. va bruni hause, did
bruni hause).   It may well be that James will use temporal and/or
aspectual adverbs, in which case any talk of the infinitive with these is
clearly wrong.
 
>> >You are criticizing my idea based on a rule you have created
>> >for me.  I am saying that there would be great freedom in
>> >using TU, so it wouldn't be wrong to say LO POVE TU VADA, or
>> >PARLA STRANJERI LINGUE ES PLU FASIL KAM SKRIPTE.  We might
>> >recommend not using TU in the first, and using it
>> >in the second example.  But where is the complication?
>
>(Since 'pove' is a full verb it can't be a "particle"; it could
>be a kind of "auxiliary verb" though -- but then we'd have two
>kind of auxiliary verbs!)
 
But two kinds of auxiliary verbs are not uncommom; in English we have "to
be" and "to have" used as aspectual auxiliaries with participles (to be +
present part. for progresive aspect & t have + past part. for perfective);
and modal auxiliaries (e.g. may, can, will etc.) used with the unmarked
infinitive.  Just to add to the fun, 'to be' is also used with the
so-called past part. as an auxiliary to form the passive and "have" may be
used rather like a modal auxiliary, but before the marked infinitive (e.g.
I have to go = I must go ['must' is a modal auxiliary]).
 
Jespersen, in fact, simplified this very considerably in his Novial by
having _all_ his auxiliary verbs used consistently with the (unmarked)
infinitive.
 
>> Yuck - worse than I thought!
>
>I'd agree!!  I think that James idea of an optional 'tu' with
>recommendations for use, whilst it sounds fine in theory, will
>be horrible in practice.  Once (if ever) the language comes into
>widespread use and develops a speaker community it is likely
>that de facto rules on the use of 'tu' will develop.  These
>could be quite complex, natural to speakers of some languages
>and illogical to speakers of others.
 
Yes, thanks, exactly my point.
>
>[....]
>
>> Eh?? You object to merging LO + derivative suffix -I to form a
>> monosyllable, but you are happy to merge LO + derivative
>> suffix -N to form a monosyllable?
>
>It's simple: the suffix '-i' leads to "unnatural diphthongs"!
 
Silly me!  I forgot about those pesky unnatural diphthongs.
 
>(However, there is a problem with the (falling) diphthong 'ii'
>and pragmatically there is a problem with 'ui' too  -- judging
>by the experience of Esperanto, most speakers of English seem
>quite unable to pronounce it.)
 
{ii} wouldn't occur in James' system.  As for {ui}, I see no objection to
allowing disyllabic [ui] beside [uj].  But James seems to want hard & fast
rules when it comes to pronunciation (cf. the /s/ ~ /z/ stance), while
allowing complete freedom over things like TU.
 
I confess I understand this no more than I understand those pesky unnatural
diphthongs.
 
Ray.
 
 
 
=======================================================
Written in Net English     Humor not necessarily marked
 
Nobody's arguments knowingly or willfully misunderstood.
 
Gerasko d'aei polla didaskomenos (SOLON)
=======================================================

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