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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 5

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Auxiliary language (was: James' project)

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:21:10 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (202 lines)

I tried to send this from work this morning, but for some reason it didn't
take. Oh, well, if at first...
 
Je 10:35 ptm 3/30/98 -0700, Bob PETRY skribis:
 
> Donald J. HARLOW wrote:=20
>=20
> > Bob, the sense in which you are discussing language involves=20
> > something that I believe is called "the pathetic fallacy" -- the=20
> > idea that an object somehow function as a human being. "An auxlang=20
> > being able to say everything on every subject ..." Languages say=20
> > nothing; people do. The question is not, how far should the=20
> > language be able to go, but how far do its users want it to go.=20
>=20
> Ok, then I mean, I do not see the usage of an auxlang being put to=20
> covering everything. My thought, is that if a person is looking for=20
> a language, any language, to do a specific job through using that=20
> language, then the person will study the language that has the=20
> vocabulary needed.=20
 
If a person is looking for a language _to do a specific job using that=20
language_. If I plan to move to Mexico, I will learn Spanish. If my=20
greatest ambition in life is to discuss black holes with Stephen=20
HAWKING, I will learn English. If I intend to specialize in the poetry=20
of PETOFI Sandor, I will learn Hungarian. If I want to read the finest=20
short stories written in this century in the original, I will learn=20
Chinese. We agree here. But an auxlang is not intended to do a=20
specific job in that sense; the job it is intended to fulfill is to=20
make communication possible -- about _anything_ -- between people who=20
don't happen to speak the same language natively. It's not the=20
specific topics of conversation that an auxlang aims at; it's the=20
linguistic differences between _users_.
 
> It certainly is the peson who=20
> accomplishes what is done, but the language is the tool. In reading=20
> Loom, & other references on auxiliary languages, several times it is=20
> mentioned by several "respected" authors that a large vocabulary=20
> defeats the overall purpose of an auxlang. And, I tend to agree with=20
> that.=20
 
So do I -- if by "vocabulary" you mean "memorization units". But it=20
doesn't have to be that way. Esperanto is not the only language to=20
build up a large usable vocabulary from a small memorizable=20
vocabulary; German does this to some extent (with the result, as a=20
friend of mine once point out, that Freud only became turgid and=20
unreadable when he was translated into English using specialist=20
vocabulary), as does Chinese to a greater extent. This distinction is=20
one of the bases of the Schematicism vs. Naturalism argument (this is=20
an aside; let's not have another S&N flamewar...).
 
> > An auxlang, whether it is Interlingua, Esperanto, or English,=20
> > should be able to handle whatever tasks its varied assortment of=20
> > _human_ users place on it. As I think I've said before, if you=20
> > underestimate what sort of tasks those will be, your auxlang will=20
> > either be ignored or its user community will make up for your=20
> > shortcomings, possibly in ways you don't like.=20
>=20
> Speaking of Esperanto, I have read in a couple of places, quotes=20
> that Esperanto was now considered a "living language". One of the=20
> quotes was in a book dealing with and promoting Esperanto. Thus, by=20
> increasing the vocabulary, and reaching a certain level of usage,=20
> some are now beginning to say it is a living language.=20
 
Are you sure that "vocabulary" was actually mentioned here? Or is this=20
an interpolation?
 
The term "living language" refers to a language that is used by=20
people in "living situations", not to any intrinsic quality of the=20
language. Esperanto is a living language today; Tocharian, which=20
probably had a considerably larger set of memorization units, is not.
 
> To=20
> me, that means it is loosing its auxiliary purpose and is taking on=20
> the role of a "natlang". Thus, most of those deciding whether to=20
> learn it or not, will make that decision based on where they plan to=20
> travel and spend time, on how many speakers are using it, etc. The=20
> same thing being done with those traveling to places in the world=20
> where other lin are spoken. And, in many cases, then, as time goes=20
> on, more and more people who learn Esperanto will not be doing it=20
> for "auxiliary" reasons.=20
>=20
What are these "auxiliary" reasons?
 
> Does this make the language overly complicated and therefore=20
> unlearnable,=20
>=20
Apparently not.
 
> > or at least more difficult to learn than we want? Not necessarily.=20
 
> > A language doesn't need to be complicated in order to be complex;=20
> > and regularity and proper word-formation can keep the memorization=20
> > units within reasonable limits. Also, there are levels of ability;=20
> > one person may be satisfied with what he can do with the original=20
> > 500+ words in Zamenhof's first book -- another may want to=20
> > memorize everything he can find so that he can discuss anything.=20
> > But let the user decide her limits; don't insist that they be=20
> > forced on her by the language. Users don't like that.=20
>=20
> I think this somewhat points in the direction Esperanto is going. It=20
> started as an "auxlang" with a basic essential vocabulary, and has=20
> now grown toward being a "living language" and is settling in to the=20
> same status as Indonesian, Japanese, English, only not as big a=20
> speaker pool. Once Esperanto left its basic pool of words it became=20
> something else. Again, this is my own opinion based on what I think=20
> I see, and on comments made by others who have published works in=20
> this field. Complication is not the only criterion for an auxlang,=20
> it is also ease of vocabulary learning.=20
>=20
You overestimate, I think, the size of Esperanto's root vocabulary.
I've quoted the official root vocabulary at 8000-9000 roots today,=20
after eight "official additions". WACHA Balazs in Hungary recently=20
pointed out to me that this is a severe overestimate; the actual=20
number is somewhere between 4000 and 5000. Counting official words on=20
a few pages of PIV convinced me that he is right. This is a nice=20
multiple of the number of words Zamenhof included in his Unua Libro in=20
1887, but only fractionally higher than the set contained in the=20
_Fundamento_ in 1905.
 
But even here we are looking at a set of words most of which will=20
never be used. Statistics in an article included in William AULD's=20
compendium _En Barko Senpilota_ indicate that Auld, the premier=20
Esperantist poet of his generation, in a corpus that includes a large=20
number of books generally contented himself with fewer than a thousand=20
roots. Claude PIRON's _Vere a=FD fantazie_, which includes stories and=20
essays on a number of topics -- several of which have been=20
anthologized by other authors -- starts out with 500 morphemes that=20
number includes roots, affixes, and grammatical endings) and gradually=20
works up to just over a thousand by the end of the book. The magazine=20
_Kontakto_ publishes informative articles on a wide range of topics=20
using an editorially mandated restricted vocabulary of 500 roots.
 
> So, if I am write, what difference does it make? Well, it seems to=20
> me, that any language developer who hopes to have his or her=20
> language adopted by a large block of "nations" for auxiliary=20
> purposes will be defeated by the politics of offering to those=20
> nations a perceived "replacement" language and it just won't be=20
> adopted. I think that is a major "unspoken" reason why the UN, the=20
> EE C and others won't, or haven't totally adopted it. However, When=20
> it was an "auxlang" it was really growing like crazy. Then other=20
> factors slowed that down, along with, I believe, the point I was=20
> just making.=20
>=20
The logic is good, but the statistics don't support your premise.=20
Percentagewise, Esperanto grew fastest in its first ten years -- for=20
good mathematical reasons (from Jul. 1887 to Jan. 1888 it probably had=20
its highest percentage growth, going from one speaker to three or four=20
or even a dozen). But the number of speakers appears to be=20
considerably higher today than it was at the time of Dietterle's=20
survey in the late twenties -- by a factor greater than that of=20
population growth, in fact -- and this despite a period when in the=20
areas where it was then most spoken it was effectively banned and the=20
speaking population then extant reduced considerably, and a later=20
period when a competing, better funded and more visible auxiliary=20
(English) has stolen the limelight.
 
> So, if I am wrong? Nothing will change until we, or someone finally=20
> happens on the right formula, and then, bingo, the world to some=20
> degree will adopt that "auxiliary". All of this is my personal=20
> opinion, and is NOT meant to be, nor does it have any intent to be=20
> argumentative.=20
>=20
Politics play an important role here, but you have it by the wrong=20
end. It is not the _qualities_ of a proposed auxiliary that make it=20
unsuitable, but the _uses_ to which it will be put; in other words,=20
will it interrupt the privileged positions occupied by other languages=20
with lots of political clout? This is why the French government fought=20
so hard to bury Esperanto at the League of Nations in 1922. This is=20
one (only one) of the reasons why Esperantists were executed or exiled=20
to Siberia _en masse_ at the end of the thirties -- paranoiacs in the=20
Kremlin believed that Esperanto constituted a serious threat to the=20
continuation of _Russian_ as _the_ interlanguage of the multiethnic=20
Soviet Union. This is the reason why the U.S. State Department in late=20
1953 wrote a letter to UNESCO urging it not even to discuss the=20
situation of Esperanto and the (then widely touted) Interlingua at the=20
1954 General Conference in Montevideo. Has nothing to do with how=20
simple or complicated the language is (in fact, when such matters do=20
get to an open forum, the simplicity is often overstated by opponents,=20
as though it were a serious fault in the language); it's just a=20
question of whose position is threatened. _There is no linguistic=20
formula that will resolve this problem_.
 
(Interesting side note about UNESCO 1954: why did it eventually adopt=20
a resolution favoring Esperanto, and not even discuss Interlingua?=20
This bears on the question. Remember that in 1954 UNESCO was=20
essentially a Euro-American organization; the largest single voting=20
bloc consisted of languages using a Romance language almost=20
exclusively -- the Spanish-speaking nations. You would think that=20
UNESCO would have been prejudiced in favor of Interlingua -- I vaguely=20
remember a footnote in Pei's book that suggests that this was the case=20
at UNESCO in those days -- but as far as I know it wasn't even=20
discussed -- certainly not at length. Reason: Esperantists had enough=20
political clout to force the issue; Interlingua supporters were few,=20
far between, and not organized. In fact, see what happened when the=20
General Conference originally _rejected_ the resolution favoring=20
Esperanto. Nothing to do with the qualities of the language or=20
languages in question; pure politics.)
 
-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/
(English version: http://www.webcom.com/~donh/dona.html)

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December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
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May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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July 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
October 1997, Week 2
October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
September 1997, Week 4
September 1997, Week 3
September 1997, Week 2
September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 5
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July 1997, Week 5
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July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 3
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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