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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 5

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Idiomaticos

From:

Robin Gaskell <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 28 Mar 1998 23:25:31 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (88 lines)

At 08:09 PM 3/26/98 +0100, Kjell Rehnstrom pa skribe:
>Io pensa que le idiomatico pote esser usate si longe que on es convincite
>que on es comprendite. Ensjo credeva que omnes non pote comprender un
>expression como _si longe que_. Io percipe isto como un expression svedese.
>Illo pote esser ben comprendite sub le condition que on comprende: Esque
>ille laborava longe heri? Si ille laborava 3 horas. Esque vos crede que
>ille va laborar si longe etiam hodie? - Si io lo crede. Ille debe laborar
>tanto que (como) on postula. Si ille pote laborar si longe como (que)
>necessari. Ille va laborar si linge como il es necessari.
>
>Mi error forsan era _que _ in vice de _como_.
>
*       From the above, I get it that you can translate the English idiom *as
long as* into Interlingua, but that you got it wrong, at first.
 
        What is the place, if any, of idioms in the Auxiliary Languages?
        If this very rich aspect of language has a place in languages proposed for
use as Auxiliaries, is there any mechanism we can suggest, so that idioms
do not get mixed up with the literal use of language?
        Especially in the AL business, where innovation is in, is it possible to
imagine Auxlangers coming up with innovative ways of effectively using
idioms -
so that they are still meaningful, but do not cause confusion .. across the
language barriers?
        If an adopted Global IAL is used, as it certainly would be, as a "bridge
language" for translation between national languages, should we be thinking
of building up a store of Auxlang idioms that are equivalents of those in
the natlangs?  I am thinking, here, of the role of the expected IAL as a
'meaning representation system.'  This suggests that the idiom in Language
A. is translated into the Auxiliary language, and tagged as an idiom, then
this intermediate form (the Auxiliary version of the idiom) is retranslated
from the Auxiliary to Language B.  In computerised translation, this would
be quite possible through the compilation of international thesauri of
idioms.  And, for the IAL hypothesis to be tested properly, this
international thesaurus would have to including the auxiliary languages. IE
 
        Idiom(Lang.A) ------> Idiom(IAL) -------> Idiom(Lang.B)
 
         Source              Intermediate         Target
 
        Can Auxlangers imagine the "chunking" of idioms, so that they can be
passed through the world's language systems without corruption, while not
getting confused with the normal, literal use of language?
        If idioms are a good thing, and if it were a good thing to 'chunk'
idioms, can we, as innovators of the High Order of Auxlang, come up with a
way of dealing with these creative, non-literal elements of language - so
that their meanings are preserved, and they translate readily into the
world's culture(s)?
         _________________________________
 
        All right, I'll *come clean*.  I do have my answers sorted out:-
 
        Yes, idioms are important to our mental health, and an AL devoid of them
would be sterile*.
        Yes, we can identify and mark off idioms in a way almost identical to the
way we mark off quotations of direct speech.
        While I suggested that chunking of idioms could be achieved using
asterisks to mark them off, but was strongly reminded that the asterisk was
*already spoken for*, I now favour the humble ampersand if no meddling
Linguist has already grabbed it: so, maybe we can @look before we leap@
into the global adoption of an auxlang as the IAL.
        Auxlang authors ought to create, as well as a dictionary of words, a
thesaurus of idioms.
        ___________________________________
Ref. Other thoughts are in my concurrent posting,  Re: Less .... **Non-literal
 
Danger: the use of metaphor across the language barriers can be even more
devastating than mistranslations of idioms.  Originally, I lumped idiom and
metaphor together for similar treatment, i.e. @xxxxxx xx xxx@  and  xxxxx@
respectively, with the Non-Literal (N-L) marker, indicating instances of
the colourful@ use of language.  However, I got so bogged down in the
matter of idiom that there was no room to discus metophor: maybe later.
 
Saluta,
 Robin
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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