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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 5

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Less, ..... **Non-Literal

From:

Robin Gaskell <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 28 Mar 1998 23:26:07 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (236 lines)

Well Folks,
        Years ago I submitted a paper to a conference in America that was about
"Non-Literal Language."  I got jumped on so severely, that I probably
suppressed the word psychologically.  APOLOGIES, APOLOGIES: I should have
described idiom and metaphor as 'non-literal language.'
 
        And no matter how many word games Ray Brown and Paul Bartlett play,
problems of non-literal language, in translation, are monumental, and a
very serious matter for all of those wishing to see Global Communication.
        [As time passes, my estimate of this number keeps getting smaller.]
 
        Million dollar projects tend to bog down owing to their inability to
handle the problems created by idioms and metaphors in the national
languages; and, it has been pointed out, on Auxlang, that there is serious
danger of such non-literal language creeping into auxlang usage ... almost
unconsciously.  Perhaps there is something that can be done to avoid this
problem.  Perhaps we can agree that when a German is *shaking your arm* he
is doing the same as an Englishman who is *pulling your leg.*  Maybe the
auxlang creators need to wake up and write standard equivalents of natlang
idioms into their auxlangs ... or, at least compile list of phrases that
could be used to carry the meaning of the non-literal usages, when their
auxlangs are being used as bridge languages in translation.
 
        So, the asterisk has already been given an association: *this wrong is.
        I challenge the cretive thinkers [?] of the Auxlang List to come up with
something better than my suggestion!  Just because the execution of my idea
was not to people's liking, it does not mean that the basic conception was
wrong.
        Find some other ASCII symbol that has not been assigned a function by
Linguists: perhaps we should #avoid losing our perspective# on this, and
not %get bogged down% in negative criticism, while @keeping our opions
open@ on the question of finding a solution to the idiom/metaphor problem.
        The Glosa authors have said that the right word should be used - rather
than a metaphor.  I have tried this .. often the ~mot juste~ is elusive,
and sometimes it becomes boringly repetitious.  Let us enjoy our metaphors
- I say - revel in our idioms, but knowingly, and with style!
 
        Use a questionable idiom in speech, as Ray and Paul would have us do,
could result in a friendly "WHat the bloody hell do you mean?" or a less
friendly punch in the nose, if the spoken idiom is not understood.  Fine,
fine: communication is being seen to be done.
 
        But Paul and Ray - while technically correct in claiming that speech has
primacy, and that the asterisk (hash, percent sign, "at", etc) is a 'silent
letter' - would definitely hear the carat if I shouted at them to ^go to
Hell!^
 
        Only kidding chaps: strong language purely for effect, to make a point.
 
        Sadly, most of us, on Auxlang, will never meet to exchange asterisked
idioms face to face, but, as Bruce Gilson correctly points out, we meet by
video-light: what you say* on Auxlang is just flourescence on the inside of
a cathode ray tube.  BUT IT IS COMMUNICATION.  Yes, I am shouting ... but
only metaphorically so - through the magic of capitalisation.
 
        What the students of Mongolian dialects and the sticklers for grammatical
exactitude have failed to observe is that we are now in a Virtual World,
where fortunes are made or lost at the blip of an electron.  The world has
changed: all bets are off; and most of the significant communications we
receive each day are mediated, and not received through face-to-face direct
speech.  Also, the world really is shrinking!  When you take in cretive
fiction, is the majority of it heard or read; when you hear the day's news,
is it told to you by someone you can question, or does it come to you via
one-way communication media?  So, ladies and gentlemen of the Auxlang jury,
I hope I have convinced you that the sense, by which this humble blip
reaches you, is the one that brings you the majority of your daily culture.
 
        Let us continue to enjoy our traditional culture, which is rife with
the colour* of non-literal language.  But now that "multiculturalism" is in,
descendents of a country's original colonists are finding that their
colourful* language is not understood by the children of more recent
migrants.  So purely for cultural reasons, before the non-literals are lost
from our languages, or are exterminated by the 'political correctivists,'
we should revel in them, preserve them and ... mark them!
 
        As society rushes towards Globalisation, cultural confusion rapidly
approaches ... unless we do something to maintain the joy of being human
that is held in the colour* of our various national languages.  The IAL
hypothesis will be opposed whilever people see see it as an emblandening of
culture forced upon them through the straightening of language.  People
will not talk about the weather using an IAL if they cannot enjoy
describing the equivalent of *cat and dog* rain; nor will they want to tell
jokes in an IAL if they are unable to use it to *wag the tail* of their
listener ... or reader.
 
        So there, as the approach of a world language threatens to deliver us a
blandness of tongue, we need to oppose such dehumanisation of communication
by *nurturing the blossoms* of non-literal language in our planned
languages.      However, "you are walking on the grass" signs needs to be
erected to remind those who venture *off the path* when using the 'nuspeak'
that they are *gambolling in the dewey meadows* of the new language.  In
pedestrian terms, to maintain sanity, not only should we mark off, and allow,
non-literal language in an IAL, we should actively encourage its
development in the languages that are candidaates for adoption: to avoid
the blandness of a non-idiomatic, but rational, world tongue, we should
make the use of colourful* language, within auxiliary languages, an
advertised feature, indicated by a sign that can be agreed upon by the
Linguistic fraternity.
 
        Any suggestions Ray?  What do you reckon, Paul?  Had either of you thought
about whether, or not, there should be idiom and metaphor in the global IAL
.... the same one that Arthur C. Clark reckons might be adopted around 2050?
 
        Children can learn about quotation marks (both single and double) at
school; they could just as easily learn about non-literal marks.  The big
question is: can Linguists agree among themselves on the form that such N-L
markings should take?
 
        An International Axiliary Language without well-defined non-literal
language would be *one steak short of a barbie* [Australian colloquial.
having a picnic at a barbecue fireplace with insufficient meat = missing
something].
 
At 06:40 AM 3/27/98 GMT, Raymond Brown wrote:
>At 10:00 26/3/98, Paul O Bartlett wrote:
>>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Robin Gaskell wrote (excerpted):
>>
>>> *       This is true, but wouldn't it be nice, if we had a way of
>>>knowing that
>>> a figure of speech was in play!?
>>
>>    Others may correct me, but my opinion is that idiom and figure of
>>speech are not quite the same thing.
>
>No, they are not.
>
>A 'figure of speech' is a form of abnormal expression designed to produce
>some special effect, e.g.
>alliteration - "I had Wandered me Weary so Weary I rested me
>                on a Broad Bank By a merry-sounding Burn."
>                [Piers Plowman]
*       Sorry about that: not figures of speech, but non-literal language.
 
>
>IMHO such things would enrich any IAL and marking then with asterisks or
>any other mark, whether written or spoken, would cause them to lose their
>effect.
>
*       Agreed, I don't want to mark figures of speech, just the idioms and
probably metaphors (when people know they are using them).
 
>But IDIOMS are a different matter.  An idiom is a string of words which is
>certainly semantically restricted and often syntactically restricted as
>well in such way that the string functions as a _single unit_.
>Semantically, the meanings of the individual words cannot be summed to
>produce the meaning of the idiomatic unit; syntactically, the words often
>do not allow the variation they would normally display in other contexts.
>
>Consider the idiom: 'it is raining cats and dogs'.
>SEMANTICALLY RESTRICTED
>A non-English speaker may learn the meaning of 'it is raining', 'cat' and
>'dog' but this will in no way give her any idea of the meaning of the idiom
>-  *es regnet Katzen und Hunde - *il pleut des chiens et des chats - *llove
>gatos y perros - *mae'n bwrw glaw cathod a chw^n  - etc. etc. are all
>meaningless.
>
*       Precisely.  So, in the English language section of the Glosa Non-Literal
Reference File (electronic - for ease of access) we find a listing of that
English-language idiom, followed by its literal meaning in Glosa (for
translation purposes) and a Glosa equivalent idiom, followed by hypertext
markers for the various other natlangs that have equivalent idioms. EG
        it is raining cats and dogs: u meteo dona fo forti pluvi; na du gene pluvi
per manu-va. [D], [Fr], [Sp], [Gael], ...
 
        When we activate the  [Fr]  hypertext link, we come up with an item, in
the French-language section of the G.N-L.R.F., and it certainly is not "il
pleut des chiens et des chats".  Instead, we get the French equivalent
colloquial idiom for "it is raining cats and dogs."
 
>SYNTACTICALLY RESTRICTED
>We cannot say: *it's raining a cat & dog - *it's raining some cats & dogs -
>*it's raining the cats & dogs - *it's raining dogs and cats - etc. etc.
>
>Neither of these consideration apply to the figures of speech above.
>
*       Right.  So, figures of speech are flexible, and translate 'invisibly',
while idioms are set pieces, needing special treatment - if they are to be
preserved in the Auxiliary Languages.  Hence the suggestion for marking
idioms.
 
>>
>>>              So, us good guys, who know what an idiom is, could teach the
>>> unconscious writers a trick or two.  As you have all heard of 'quotation
>>> marks,'
>>> now learn about F-O-S (figure of speech) marks: use the handy "*"
symbol >>to  [  .......  ]
>
>We better guys, who know both what an idiom is and what a figure of speech
>is, are somewhat confused; our minds are bewildered and we're seeing stars!
>
*       Sorry ~better guys~: using N-L (non-literal) marks, possibly the harsh
"hash" (#) or the more cursive "at" (@), might stop your heads from
whirling, and bring your vision back to normal.
 
>
>>> [..] wrap around your *off the planet* idiomatic usages; and, when using
>>> colourful* language, metaphorically, place the asterisk at the end of the
>>> single out-of- normal-use word.
>>
>>    How, pray tell, do you speak an asterisk?
>  ...............................................* You don't.
>Guess it'd sound like the clapping of one hand.
>  ...............................................* It does!
*       Force of emotion is sufficient to tell that non-literal speech is being
used: it's only in written work, where the nuance of vocalisation is
absent, that idioms need to be marked, as such.
 
>>Some conIALists tend
>>tend to forget that most IALs are intended for spoken as well as
>>strictly written communication.
*       So it looks as if idioms from the the natlangs will need to be adopted
and adapted to the Nuspeak.
 
>Indeed - to me, as I've observed before, the written language is decidedly
>secondary.
*       True, fity years ago.
 
>>Also, in language circles, the
>>asterisk in written texts is used variously.  This could be a source
>>of confusion.
*       Pity 'bout that: it's such a nice shape, too.  As possible alternatives,
"#" stands out on the computer screen, while "@" is easier in the archaic
form, hand-writing.  Neither would be sounded in speech; is either alredy
booked, Linguistically speaking?
 
>Er, you mean, like mixing figures of speech & idioms, or mixing metaphores
;-)
>
>Ray.
>
*       Yairs, something like that, and don't forget that the early bird in the
hand catches the worm in the bush.
 
Saluta,
 Robin

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May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
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June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 3
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
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September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
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March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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November 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 5
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July 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
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September 1997, Week 5
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September 1997, Week 1
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July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 3
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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