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AUXLANG  March 1998, Week 5

AUXLANG March 1998, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Auxiliary language (was: James' project)

From:

"Robert J. Petry" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:31:44 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (143 lines)

Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
 
> I tried to send this from work this morning, but for some reason it didn't
> take. Oh, well, if at first...
>
> Je 10:35 ptm 3/30/98 -0700, Bob PETRY skribis:
>
> > [kut]
>
> If a person is looking for a language _to do a specific job using that
> language_. If I plan to move to Mexico, I will learn Spanish. If my
> greatest ambition in life is to discuss black holes with Stephen
> HAWKING, I will learn English. If I intend to specialize in the poetry
> of PETOFI Sandor, I will learn Hungarian. If I want to read the finest
> short stories written in this century in the original, I will learn
> Chinese. We agree here. But an auxlang is not intended to do a
> specific job in that sense; the job it is intended to fulfill is to
> make communication possible -- about _anything_ -- between people who
> don't happen to speak the same language natively. It's not the
> specific topics of conversation that an auxlang aims at; it's the
> linguistic differences between _users_.
 
So far, I totally agree, except I question the use of the word --anything--.
Here is a quote from Loom that I agree with and seems to me to be relavent. It
is a quote about Interlingua since I don't want to give the impression that,
since I mentioned Esperanto before, that I was being negative towards it. But
I think this comment can apply to any potential auxiliary language we could
discuss."The capital weakness of Interlingua is that its vocabulary is too
large. Its author ignored the interests of the peoples of Africa and Asia, as
he also ignored the polain man in Europe. Had he had more sympathy with their
needs he would lhave worked out a MINIMUM vocabulary sufficient for everyday
purposes. He did not. The 1915 edition of Peano's Vocabulario Commune contains
fourteen thousand words which have currency in leading European languages."
 
Dutton was working on a Speedwords dictionary of 30,000 words before he died.
So, I thought I would continue on and add the necessary 20,000 word vocabulary
to the present dictionary to complete the project. Then, after reviewing my
own use of Speedwords, and reading many comments like the quote above, I have
decided to abandon that project. It is not needed. I already can say almost
anything I want with the present size of the vocabulary. For words not covered
they are easily covered on the spot, like the example of Jargon I gave before.
Or, by doing what we do in everyother language. I add the word in the sentence
from the source of already accepted international words. For instance, the
language of science is in essence already here. And, these words are
universally known in China, Japan, Russia, Germany, England, etc. Of course,
the average man on the street may not need or use them. But, by using them, I
could talk to Stephen Hawkings in RLR if he knew it, and cover all needed by
interjection the correct "scientific international word". It woudl thus be
easier for Hawkings to learn RLR, say, than Russian if that were my language,
and easier than me learning English. And, any auxiliary language would do the
same, without mandating that an individual learn the auxiliary vocabulary for
everything.
 
Here's the principle: "By 1950, the number of speech communities participating
in the scientific venture was growing apace. When Hogben advanced a project
(Interglossa) which combined the contributions of Peano and Ogden with the
recognition that it is also unnecessary to memorise a new vocabulary based on
an internationally current stock-in-trade....."
 
Nu, j yr des spe ab l "Na K+" tiriurg i l onk bod. [written form] But in the
spoken form, when I reach Na K+ I would say Sodium Potassium.
 
If, I feel, I have to have words in RLR, Novial, Ido, Esperanto, etc. for
Sodium and Potassium, then those languages go beyond being a "helper"
language. I'm sure this will not change minds, but as I said, this is only my
way of looking at things. So, for me, by using a simple "helper" language
along with any internationally accepted word base already known, I can
communicate with any other speaker of RLR on any topic in any depth. And, done
this way, would I think, be true of Esp. Ido, Novial Occ. LsF, etc. And, would
help eliminate an over size vocabulary need, thus simplifying the learning
process, and drasticallly cutting the time to learn.[kut]> To
 
> > me, that means it is loosing its auxiliary purpose and is taking on
> > the role of a "natlang". Thus, most of those deciding whether to
> > learn it or not, will make that decision based on where they plan to
> > travel and spend time, on how many speakers are using it, etc. The
> > same thing being done with those traveling to places in the world
> > where other lin are spoken. And, in many cases, then, as time goes
> > on, more and more people who learn Esperanto will not be doing it
> > for "auxiliary" reasons.
> >
> What are these "auxiliary" reasons?
 
1. It would be essentially an isolating language.... With the possible
exception of a plural terminal, it would have no flexional modifications of
word form.....rules of grammar would be rules of word order....uniform and as
few as possible.2. It would be essentially a language with Latin-Greek word
material....[I think a broder base is needed though]
3. It would have word economy at least as great as that of Basic English....
4. It would have regular spelling based on the characters of the Latin
alphabet....
5. Because of its great word economy it could be easily equipped with the type
of simplified alphabetic shorthand embodied in R. Dutton's ingenious system of
Speedwords.
Loom of Language, p. 516-7.
6. It would offer almost instant usage with the aid of a simple pocket
dictionary grammar.
7. It would be explainable to the newcomer in an hour or less, preferably 20
minutes or less.
8. Its grammar would be so simple that the "hard" part would be vocabulary
building only. And, that should be easy of accomplishment. No difficult words
to manage.
9. It would give exceptional communications ability within a week, not years
or months or even weeks.
10. It would be usable on a daily basis by any individual whether or not it
was being used for interlingual communication.
11. It would fun and not a chore to learn.
6-11 are my personal additions.
 
> [kut]
>
> > > A language doesn't need to be complicated in order to be complex;
> > > and regularity and proper word-formation can keep the memorization
> > > units within reasonable limits. Also, there are levels of ability;
> > > one person may be satisfied with what he can do with the original
> > > 500+ words in Zamenhof's first book -- another may want to
> > > memorize everything he can find so that he can discuss anything.
> > > But let the user decide her limits; don't insist that they be
> > > forced on her by the language. Users don't like that.
 
see response above.[kut]
 
> You overestimate, I think, the size of Esperanto's root vocabulary.
> I've quoted the official root vocabulary at 8000-9000 roots today,
> after eight "official additions". WACHA Balazs in Hungary recently
> pointed out to me that this is a severe overestimate; the actual
> number is somewhere between 4000 and 5000. Counting official words on
> a few pages of PIV convinced me that he is right. This is a nice
> multiple of the number of words Zamenhof included in his Unua Libro in
> 1887, but only fractionally higher than the set contained in the
> _Fundamento_ in 1905.
 
I don't think I am, and I am not criticising Esperanto. It is just my personal
opinion that any auxiliary language with a real base vocabulary of over 4,000
words is too many.By the way, I can teach a Frenchman 1,000 words in
Portuguese in a minute or less. And, similar results with a Spaniard or
Englishman etc. So, why would they need to learn a large vocabularied auxlang?
:-)))
 
Al l sue,
Bob
[kut]

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December 2003, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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