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AUXLANG  April 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG April 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Novial

From:

"Robert J. Petry" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:50:21 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

Ken Caviness wrote:
 
> Je 10:30 AM 18.04.98 -0700, Bruce R. Gilson skribis:
>
> >Bob Petry:
> >
> >> ... Volapuk was not Solresol expanded or improved.
> >
> >It was not a direct update of Solresol. True. But Schleyer certainly w=
as
> >building on the same _concept_: a constructed language intended to bri=
dge the
> >gap between those who cannot understand each other's native tongue.
 
Please note, this post makes it appear that I wrote the sentence beginnin=
g with
"It was not a direct update of...." I did not write this, it was a reply =
to my
statement above ....Volapuk was not......or improved." the rest of the qu=
otes
listed below are not mine either. Thanks.Bob Petry
 
> All con-IALs are based on this same concept, c`u ne?  Why not simply sa=
y
> that Solresol (and many other planlingvoj) preceded Volap=FCk?
>
> I've come to the conclusion that Solresol is only mentioned in the
> artificial language books because it is so different from most of the
> others (using as it did, the Western musical scale).
>
> >Volapuek
> >was possibly not the first to include elements from the real languages=
 of the
> >world
>
> It _certainly_ was not the first such.
>
> >(as opposed to the arbitrary combinations of 7 basic syllables in
> >Solresol), but it was the first to be actually taught to other than it=
s
> >author that did.
>
> This is a difficult statement to substantiate.  How many pre-Volap=FCk
> planlingvoj achieved a user-base of >1 ?  Not a large percentage, but
> surely not 0, I think.  Let's just say that Volap=FCk was the first
> planned language (of any breed) to achieve (relatively) wide-spread use=
=2E
>
> >And so it _was_ a successor to Solresol, intended to be a better
> >language.
>
> Do we have any indication that Schleyer knew of Sudre's work?  If not,
> then the above statement makes no more sense than to say that Volap=FCk=
 was
> a successor of the (at least) 184 planlingvoj which preceded it.  (Vola=
p=FCk
> is #185 in Dulichenko, Solresol #163.)
>
> >If you look at the set I gave, Solresol-Volapuek-Esperanto-Ido-Novial,=
 except
> >for the last step, each step is smaller than the one before, an axampl=
e of
> the
> >asymptotism I've talked about. Because Ido was deliberately crafted as=
 a
> >corrected Esperanto, that step is particularly small, as the step from=
 N30
> >to GN is also. So Ido to Novial, therefore, is a somewhat bigger step =
than
> >Esperanto to Ido. But still much smaller than the earlier ones.
>
> Solresol has no connection to Volap=FCk, Volap=FCk no connection to Esp=
eranto,
> Ido was clearly a modification of Esperanto, Novial was not introduced =
as
> a modification of Ido, but _was_ created by an Idist.
>
> Your "steps" are extremely artificially chosen.
>
> How do the other 1000+ planlingvoj fit into this paradigm?
>
> This idea of asymptotic convergence is Truly Scrumptious, but the facts=
 
> seem to more closely agree with Paul Bartlett's description of endless
> tinkering.  The problem is (as he has also stated) that the next reform=
er's
> changes could very easily (and often do) head in a different direction.=
 
>
> Looking at Dulichenko, one sees the same spectrum of types of languages=
 
> recurring, the same variety of modifications appearing "sen fino", no
> convergence.  I fail to grasp why anyone can have much hope that any
> current modification of Novial (for instance) will result in something
> more acceptable to the masses than was Jespersen's original.  Suppose
> one of the current projects (or a synthesis) was ever agreed on.  Befor=
e
> the language had any chance to "catch on", more reformers would start
> pulling in 16 new directions.
>
> Sorry if this sounds pessimistic, but it's well supported by history.  =
I
> forget how many different "Idides", Ido reform projects, I counted in t=
he
> period between 1908-1973 (which is as far as Dulichenko lists, surely t=
he
> reform-mania continues) -- and don't forget that the "official" Ido was=
 
> repeatedly changed by fiat, too.  (Maybe a causal relationship?)
>
> I doubt if human nature has changed much in the past few centuries.  Th=
e
> record shows that it's _very_ difficult to build a user-base, and if th=
e
> "user-to-reformer ratio" drops too low, the language dies, or goes into=
 
> hibernation.  But never fear -- someone may try to rejuvenate it someti=
me
> in the future!  And so it goes ....
>
> ^Cion bonan deziras al vi
>
> Ken
>
>   *-----------------------------------------------------------------*
>   | Ken CAVINESS           Physics at Southern Adventist University |
>   | [log in to unmask]             ESPERANTO =3D Lingvo internacia |=
 
>   | http://southern.edu/~caviness/     E-o/English/Fran=E7ais/Deutsch |=
 
>   *-----------------------------------------------------------------*

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