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AUXLANG  April 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG April 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Novial

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:37:18 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (99 lines)

Je 10:30 AM 18.04.98 -0700, Bruce R. Gilson skribis:
 
>Bob Petry:
>
>> ... Volapuk was not Solresol expanded or improved.
>
>It was not a direct update of Solresol. True. But Schleyer certainly was
>building on the same _concept_: a constructed language intended to bridge=
 the
>gap between those who cannot understand each other's native tongue.=20
 
All con-IALs are based on this same concept, c`u ne?  Why not simply say=20
that Solresol (and many other planlingvoj) preceded Volap=FCk?
 
I've come to the conclusion that Solresol is only mentioned in the=20
artificial language books because it is so different from most of the=20
others (using as it did, the Western musical scale).
 
>Volapuek
>was possibly not the first to include elements from the real languages of=
 the
>world=20
 
It _certainly_ was not the first such.
 
>(as opposed to the arbitrary combinations of 7 basic syllables in
>Solresol), but it was the first to be actually taught to other than its
>author that did.=20
 
This is a difficult statement to substantiate.  How many pre-Volap=FCk
planlingvoj achieved a user-base of >1 ?  Not a large percentage, but=20
surely not 0, I think.  Let's just say that Volap=FCk was the first=20
planned language (of any breed) to achieve (relatively) wide-spread use. =20
 
>And so it _was_ a successor to Solresol, intended to be a better
>language.
 
Do we have any indication that Schleyer knew of Sudre's work?  If not,=20
then the above statement makes no more sense than to say that Volap=FCk was=
=20
a successor of the (at least) 184 planlingvoj which preceded it.  (Volap=FCk=
=20
is #185 in Dulichenko, Solresol #163.)
 
>If you look at the set I gave, Solresol-Volapuek-Esperanto-Ido-Novial,=
 except
>for the last step, each step is smaller than the one before, an axample of
the
>asymptotism I've talked about. Because Ido was deliberately crafted as a
>corrected Esperanto, that step is particularly small, as the step from N30
>to GN is also. So Ido to Novial, therefore, is a somewhat bigger step than
>Esperanto to Ido. But still much smaller than the earlier ones.
 
Solresol has no connection to Volap=FCk, Volap=FCk no connection to=
 Esperanto,=20
Ido was clearly a modification of Esperanto, Novial was not introduced as=20
a modification of Ido, but _was_ created by an Idist.
 
Your "steps" are extremely artificially chosen. =20
 
How do the other 1000+ planlingvoj fit into this paradigm? =20
 
This idea of asymptotic convergence is Truly Scrumptious, but the facts=20
seem to more closely agree with Paul Bartlett's description of endless=20
tinkering.  The problem is (as he has also stated) that the next reformer's=
=20
changes could very easily (and often do) head in a different direction.
 
Looking at Dulichenko, one sees the same spectrum of types of languages
recurring, the same variety of modifications appearing "sen fino", no=20
convergence.  I fail to grasp why anyone can have much hope that any=20
current modification of Novial (for instance) will result in something=20
more acceptable to the masses than was Jespersen's original.  Suppose=20
one of the current projects (or a synthesis) was ever agreed on.  Before=20
the language had any chance to "catch on", more reformers would start=20
pulling in 16 new directions. =20
 
Sorry if this sounds pessimistic, but it's well supported by history.  I
forget how many different "Idides", Ido reform projects, I counted in the
period between 1908-1973 (which is as far as Dulichenko lists, surely the
reform-mania continues) -- and don't forget that the "official" Ido was=20
repeatedly changed by fiat, too.  (Maybe a causal relationship?) =20
 
I doubt if human nature has changed much in the past few centuries.  The
record shows that it's _very_ difficult to build a user-base, and if the
"user-to-reformer ratio" drops too low, the language dies, or goes into
hibernation.  But never fear -- someone may try to rejuvenate it sometime=20
in the future!  And so it goes ....
 
^Cion bonan deziras al vi
 
Ken
 
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*
  | Ken CAVINESS           Physics at Southern Adventist University |
  | [log in to unmask]             ESPERANTO =3D Lingvo internacia |
  | http://southern.edu/~caviness/     E-o/English/Fran=E7ais/Deutsch |
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*

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