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AUXLANG  September 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG September 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Loom (fwd)

From:

"Donald J. Harlow" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:31:46 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (203 lines)

Je 02:11 atm 9/7/98 +0000, charles skribis:
 
>Donald J. Harlow wrote:
>
>> >> for children, all native
>> >> languages are (more or less) equally "easy."
>> >
>> >Just another false truism.
>>
>> Ummm ... false? How so?
>
>All languages are equally easy to learn?
>Or, all are easy for children only?
>Overgeneralization in either case.
>
>In the Polynesian languages, nobody over age 8 is
>busy learning the language anymore. These are
>really inherently easy langs top to bottom.
>
The first sentence is correct only because of the word "busy" -- and that's
more a question of available educational systems in re the language (in
most of Polynesia, the kids over age 8 or so are too busy learning French
or English to waste much time in polishing their own language). In the
seventeenth and eighteenth century very few speakers of English, French,
Russian or whatever were "busy" learning the language anymore, either. Of
course, in more general terms they never stop learning it -- the same being
true for English or Esperanto today.
 
>Japanese has complex features of polite social
>register that nobody can master before age 20,
>which are considered very important features.
>
Michael Farris has, I believe, already addressed this point.
 
>One could substitute Chinese with its difficult
>writing system, Russian cases, English spelling,
>hmm, all the big countries have tough languages.
>I guess they can afford that luxury.
>
Writing systems have little to do with the difficulty of a language; they
are largely an ancillary development. I am glad you put Chinese and English
writing systems in parallel; most Americans with a little knowledge of the
former tend to sneer at the system, not realizing that the time Chinese
kids put in learning to draw a couple of thousand glyphs is more or less
comparable to the time I put in (at half an hour a day for six years in
school) learning to spell.
 
>Anyway, Q.E.D. (So maybe I exaggerated a little.)
>
>All languages vary in complexity along several
>dimensions, and overall they sum/factor differently.
>Esperanto is obviously easier than English, though
>not perfect; so perhaps a much easier lang with
>equal or better "expressiveness", however defined,
>can and should be designed for IAL purposes.
>
>If all langs are equally easy and good, then
>we should throw in with Mandarin or English.
>Or if Eo is already near-enough to optimal,
>then we should all throw in with that.
>
Here is where the question of "facility" does become important. Children
have few problems learning languagages, whatever their level of
"complexity" (there do seem to be differences, but these are measured in
percentages of some standard time to learn a tongue rather than multiples);
but once you get up to puberty, and are sort of hardwired into one or two
languages that you learned as an infant, the learning of a language becomes
more difficult. Streamlining an IAL seems to make that process
significantly easier for the self-motivated grown-up person, who -- for the
near future, at least -- is going to be the individual learning the language.
 
>Also I'm concerned about suitability for machine
>translation. That leads to different issues ...
>
As "source language"? "destination language"? "intermediary language"? It's
an interesting topic.
 
>> >Latin is clearly a very difficult language, and so the
>> >children invented the vulgar varieties by their errors.
>>
>> This does not fit with the history _I_ learned. Latin, with all its
>> complications and complexities, hung around in a recognizable form for
>> about a thousand years until the disintegration of the empire and the
>> penetration to its very heart by "barbarians" (i.e., babblers) bringing
>> with them different linguistic concepts started the development of the
>> vernaculars. There is, of course, the hypothesis that the literary language
>> of Rome was somewhat different, and considerably more complicated, than the
>> spoken language; but, until someone finds a cache of tape-recordings of
>> native speakers of early-imperial Roman Latin, this will have to remain a
>> hypothesis -- and since much of the written record consists of plays
>> (Plautus, Terentius), poems (Catullus, favorite of my daughter Esther and
>> the Esperantist poet Kalman Kalocsay), and political speeches (the
>> inimitable but somewhat obnoxious teat-pea Cicero), all of which were in
>> fact recordings of what should have been the spoken word, I suspect that
>> the hypothesis is somewhat faulty.
>
>Seems to me that Latin was a dead language even while alive.
>The vulgar rabble couldn't speak it properly,
 
Again, where is your evidence for this? There are languages just as complex
as Latin extant today (Russian is _almost_ as complex, morphologically)
that are happily used in their correct forms by their native speakers.
 
>nobody likes the
>literary language with its impossible declensions/conjugations,
>
My daughter (whom I had to convince to take Latin, and who is now
voluntarily majoring in "classics" at Reed College in Oregon) might just
take issue with your "nobody"...
 
Latin is an "amazingly tough language" for modern Americans (some of them,
anyway), as I can attest from my own experience (I think I was the only
person in my class who _ever_ turned in an essay written directly in Latin
-- my teacher, who had never expected such a thing, seems to have been
amazed; and, not being _that_ much of a masochist, I only ever did it
once). But I suspect that this is, to some degree, a problem not with Latin
but with our educational system. Kjell REHNSTROM may have some light to
cast on this topic, and I herewith solicit any comments he may care to make
on the subject.
 
Note that as late as a thousand years after the language began to break
down into vernaculars, it -- in its classical form -- was widely used for
communication among a whole class of Europeans (intellectuals) none of whom
spoke it (many -- Englishmen and Germans, for instance -- did not even
speak its successor languages) as their native language.
 
>and nobody can reliably even tell the history of it ...
 
This is basically what I was saying, and seems to obviate your claim that
"the vulgar rabble couldn't speak it properly," since we have no good
evidence about _how_ the vulgar rabble spoke it (again, based on the fact
that much of the available material was not purely written-literary in
nature, but recordings of oral material -- i.e., political speeches -- it
would seem that the spoken language _was_ not that different from the
language we know). If you would care to argue that the multitude of
immigrants to Rome from other parts of the Mediterranean world and from the
north used one or more pidginized versions of the language in their daily
life, I would not care to argue against the probability of _that_.
 
>Or maybe all those -um's were really just vague nasal -o's
>and it sounded like Spanish, but the scribes spelled it as
>badly as modern English, and the whole crazy Latin grammar
>was just a myth or misunderstanding?
>
Since written Latin is fairly consistent between scribes, and since entropy
works only one way, I suspect that this is very unlikely.
 
>Anyway, Spanish is much easier than Latin, for another Q.E.D.
>
For Americans past puberty, yes indeed.
 
>> >Esperanto must be very easy for children, though I'd
>> >guess they would quickly settle on one usual word order
>
>> _My_ guess would be that if the
>> parents regularly use SVO (for instance), so will their children; if the
>> parents tend to change word order with circumstance, so will their
>> children. The latter is fairly common among fluent speakers of the
>> language, and more or less a necessity in complex sentences or emphasis.
>
>Interesting, but I know of no other language that varies
>word order to such a degree, other than the type of Latin
>that we seem to agree was highly artificial and unnatural.
>
Variation of word-order in Esperanto is certainly not (in practice) uniform
from order to order; SVO does appear to be the most common form (I once
counted occurrence of sentences of the {O, S, V} type in some text and
found that SVO made up about half of them). It is simply not mandatory, and
variations are used for various purposes, including, as I've posted before,
(a) emphasis (I believe Michael Farris had some comments on
variation-for-emphasis in Polish), (b) making complex sentences more easily
comprehensible, (c) stylistic variation.*
 
As to agreeing to the artificiality and unnaturality of written (literary,
if you prefer) Latin, I don't remember agreeing that at all; quite the
opposite.
 
(Incidentally, an Esperanto student of mine from Japan once told me that,
although standard word-order in Japanese is SOV, as taught in the
textbooks, order-variation is not uncommon in that language, either, thanks
to the use of postpositions to show grammatical function.)
 
---
 
* In translating several chapters of Edgar Rice Burroughs' "Tarzan of the
Apes", I was surprised to notice how often Burroughs -- apparently as a
stylistic gimmick -- used OSV sentences. Naturally, in English this is safe
only when one of the the subject or object belongs to a relatively limited
set of six pronouns that have different forms for subject and object (I am
here assuming the continued use of "whom" in the literary language, though
it is gradually disappearing from the spoken tongue, at least in America).
Noun-noun sentences should always be SVO; even SOV is unsafe because once
you deviate from the norm you can't be sure _which_ way you're deviating
(there is a line in Burns' "Tam O'Shanter" that gave its Esperanto
translator, Reto Rossetti, much trouble because it was unclear whether
Burns intended SOV or OSV, and context hinted at but did not determine the
correct interpretation -- if it _was_ correct.)
 
 
-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/
(English version: http://www.webcom.com/~donh/dona.html)

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February 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 1997, Week 5
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