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AUXLANG  September 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG September 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: concerned

From:

"Kenneth E. Caviness" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:26:03 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

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text/plain (330 lines)

------ =_NextPart_000_01BDDBD3.DEBAAC00
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James Chandler is concerned.
 
I am also concerned.  Bob Petry apparently did not want to go into any =
details, so James again takes the opportunity to blame everything on =
supporters of IALs which happen to be more successful than his =
favorite(s).  In my view, this is blatantly unfair.
 
Bob's decision --
"I've decided to move on and _do it anyway_. I don't need anyone's =
approval to accomplish this."
-- surprises me a little, since I thought that's what he was doing =
anyway.  Although he has been active in some of the auxlang discussions, =
he has continued right along working on his Occ/RLR sites.  I didn't =
realize anyone was holding him back!  Not really possible, is it?  His =
sites, his mailing lists, etc.  Unless he means the discussion was =
taking too much of his time - that would be easy to understand and I can =
empathize!
However the beginning of the message doesn't fit in with that view:
"After blatant misrepresentations, and twisting of quotes, after "fifth =
column" attempts to stop me in reviving Occidental, and, subtle "hints" =
in private email that I could only succeed with Occidental if certain =
people on this list approved and got behind me, I've decided ...."
All I can say is that in my time on auxlang I've not been aware of =
intentional misrepresentations, misquotes, "fifth-column" activity, etc. =
 Maybe I'm wrong, but I just normally assume that when people disagree =
with me, it is _not_ because they are intellectually dishonest (or evil, =
or stupid), but because they see things differently, may have different =
priorities and goals, different experiences.  Yes, occasionally any of =
us can have some of our facts wrong, but that can be fixed by =
communication! =20
I must say that I find Bob's statement shocking - it appears to be a =
vilification of an unspecified subset of auxlang subscribers.  I would =
like to come to the defense of our group, but I'm equally certain that =
Bob is calling 'em as he sees 'em - he must truly see some of the =
questions asked and comparisons made as intended to hobble the Occ =
revival.
Most unfortunate, on all counts.
 
Now for some of James' points:
 
I must admit to being slightly concerned about some of the obstacles =
that
have apparently been put in the way of Bob Petry in his attempt to =
revive
Occidental.  Perhaps Bob is being hysterical and paranoid in thinking =
that
 
I don't know if it is relevant, but I think I heard Bob start talking =
about a conspiracy against=20
Occidental that caused its early demise.  I must admit that I found the =
idea unconvincing.
 
there are elements abroad trying trying to frustrate his efforts; but if
 
Well, there are always elements which slow the progress of planlingvoj, =
even Esperanto=20
is not immune.  That's life.  But I just don't see what he could have =
been talking about. =20
fifth column activities means from the inside - people claiming to be =
part of a movement=20
while secretly working against it.=20
 
what he says is true, it would seem not only to be par for the course, =
but
also completely understandable and predictable on the basis of the =
current
situation.
 
More conspiracy theories?
 
As it happens, Occ is perfectly situated to be a threat to both =
Esperanto
and Interlingua, in a way in which even Ido and Novial are probably not.
On the one hand, it is in direct competition on the naturalistic side =
with
Interlingua, and the relationship between the two forms of language seem =
to
be something of a skeleton in the closet for Interlingua.  On the other
 
Actually, it seemed to me that there were some honors on both sides.  =
And it does=20
carry weight with me that although they have quite a bit in common, =
Interlingua=20
has survived better than Occidental.
 
hand, its close affinity with the existing European languages shows just
how much more can be achieved with the right choice of word elements in =
a
language which retains a regular derivation system: in short, it shows =
Esp
up for what it is.
 
Hmmm, a language whose proponents constantly claim is _so_ much better =
than=20
Esperanto, yet for some reason lost almost all of its supporters =
(whether they died,=20
moved to Interlingua or some other planlingvo, or just became inactive - =
the Occ=20
movement didn't replace itself - maybe call it "hibernation").  Yes, =
Occidental=20
shows Esperanto for what it is, the most successful planlingvo.
 
 
And here, of course, Bob has another problem: Occ is better than
Interlingua (tho coming earlier), and _much_ better than the sorry
Esperanto which the general public still identifies today with
"artificial international language".
 
I thought that by now it would be obvious to everyone on the list that =
it is=20
simply impossible to justify such blanket statements as these.  Perhaps =
since=20
you so definitely proclaim that "Occ is better than Interlingua" you =
would deign=20
to answer my question to Bob which he never answered:  Compare Occ's=20
method of vocabulary selection to Interlingua's.  This is (in my view) =
one of=20
Interlingua's strengths.  If Occ is just flat out "better" (with no ifs, =
ands, buts,=20
or other equivocation) then let's see its scientific criteria for =
vocabulary=20
selection.  Or let's say "Ila is better in that area, but it has =
problems in such=20
and such other areas".  Any dogmatic assertion that IAL X is better than =
IAL Y=20
should very possibly be viewed with concern. =20
 
(Yes, I was tempted to make that last sentence a dogmatic assertion, but =
you=20
carry the field here with yours.  And for every time you say "the sorry =
Esperanto",=20
shall I say "the futile Ido"?  Is it impossible to retain a veneer of =
civilized=20
behavior here?)
 
Some of the pieces Bob has posted from Cosmoglotta have been rather
rhetorical, and where they have needed some critciism I have provided =
it.
 
That's what we're here for!  If something is misquoted or whatever, I =
for one would=20
like to see the original, so everyone can have their facts straight.
 
But at least Bob's tactics have been completely open and subject to
criticism.  I don't know whether Bob's claims are true, but if so none =
of
it would surprise me: fifth-columnism, sordid private mails, nothing.
 
Then I'm truly sorry.
 
What else can you do when you can't defend the indefensible any longer?
 
You can call someone else's views indefensible without troubling =
yourself to meet=20
the actual arguments.  In fact, you did.
 
Esperante ke la nenecesaj flamoj estingos, salutas=20
 
Ken=20
 
*.-----------------------------------------------------------------.
|   | Ken CAVINESS           Physics at Southern Adventist University |
|   | [log in to unmask]             ESPERANTO =3D Lingvo internacia =
|
|   | http://southern.edu/~caviness/     E-o/English/Fran=E7ais/Deutsch =
|
.*-----------------------------------------------------------------.*
 
 
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BDDBD3.DEBAAC00--

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December 2000, Week 5
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