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AUXLANG  September 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG September 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Lonely Planet

From:

"Donald J. Harlow" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:18:28 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (234 lines)

Je 04:36 PM 9/8/98 -0400, Andy skribis:
>In a message dated 9/5/98 11:46:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>[log in to unmask] writes:
>
><< >If you're traveling in America and you say a few words in Esperanto,
> >I doubt the same thing would happen.  Instead, you'd probably be asked to
> take
> >a stand for or against reformative measures for the language.
>
> First sentence is correct. Second sentence is incorrect on two counts:
>
> [Serious response chopped]
>  >>
>
>Sorry for the delayed response (I've been out of town).  I'm beginning to
>wonder about Don's sense of humor.  The "second sentence" was, of course,
>tongue in cheek. =20
 
Sorry, Andy. I accept now that the "second sentence" was ... tongue in
cheek, but I would say that the "of course" is wrong. There _are_ messages
that I see immediately as humorous (see my last exchange with Zeno) and
answer (with whatever degree of success) in kind; but there are others
that, past experience tends to suggest, may result from humor, naivete or
simple malice, and those -- that second sentence of yours was one of them
-- I try to answer seriously.
 
In such cases, a smiley would help indicate the humorous intent -- but then
(since I blame past experience, with which you probably aren't familiar in
this case) it's not always clear when one has to be added.
 
>Yet, it's interesting how Don answered.  His experience has
>been formed from what he calls the Esperanto community, a group of people
with
>whom I have never had any contact.  My experience has been with people who
>have perused the TY Esperanto book and linguistics majors (does that
>invalidate my experience, Don?) =20
 
Not at all. It only defines the _limits_ of your experience. (Linguists
generally can be assigned to three categories: those who don't much care
about Esperanto one way or another [the vast majority]; those who are sure
they know everything there is to know about it [usually without having gone
to the effort to actually learn anything about it], and disparage it on
those grounds; and those who actually speak it. Thanks to Anthony Boucher
for showing this particular pattern [with respect to a different subject]
in his novella "The Compleat Werewolf".)
 
>I have read the TY book myself.  And in MY
>experience, when I talked about Esperanto with the linguweenies, I got into
>discussions about why it wouldn't work as an international language.
>Generally, the points raised were (a) that it wasn't as easy as everyone
said,
>meaning that it's not any easier to learn 300 words of Esperanto than it
is to
>learn 300 words in Spanish (and I'll get back to this point); (b) that it
>didn't have any specific culture associated with it; and (c) that the=
 people
>who have mastered Esperanto are "out there" in their weltanshauung.
>
>Now, don't flame me.  I previously had no idea of the scholarly background=
 of
>the language and so I only have believe part (c).  I wish I could say that=
 I
>wholly disbelieved it, but I have had an encounter with an esperantisto who
>put me off looking at the language because he was just a bizarre person. =
=20
 
I can sympathize with this. See Ethel, the "Green-Star Lady", in Sylvan
Zaft's _Peter Jameson's Secret Language_ for a good fictional example...
 
>As
>for part (b), it seems to me that it's a valid point.  I'll discuss it
further
>if anybody responds. =20
 
It's not a valid point because it's factually incorrect; there _is_ a
specific culture associated with Esperanto, which, as I've pointed out
elsewhere, is represented by its own literature, its own philosophy, its
own music, its own mythology, its own allusions, etc. And I'm not sure that
this is actually a Good Thing from the point of view of a "neutral" IAL. I
do conclude from the Esperanto experience, however, that it's an
_inevitable_ thing.
 
Somewhere down the road, we might wake up some morning and find out that
the United Nations, and all its member states, have announced the adoption
of an IAL that was developed (secretly) in their cellars in New York, and
that this language will be taught _immediately_ in all the world's schools.
This will be, for some short while, a culture-free language, and
(Esperanto's experience suggests), when an associated culture _does_
develop, it will be globally homogeneous. This is probably the best way to
go. But it won't happen, politics being what they are. The second route,
the one we are all trying to follow now (the "associated movement" route),
cannot _help_ generating an associated culture _before_ the language
actually becomes generally spoken.
 
>And (a)...I have to go out on a limb here, as my active
>vocabulary in Esperanto is nil.  I suppose that the word "discuss" has a
>cognate in Esperanto, like discurso or something (am if I'm wrong, please
>apply the argument to another word having the same characteristics).  As=
 far
>as I know, Esperanto relies heavily on borrowed Latin, but it doesn't seem=
 to
>go to the roots.  The root of "discuss" is "quatere", meaning "to shake,
>strike".  The connection to the meaning of "discuss" is figurative.  So=
 tell
>me why learned figuratively associated roots in Esperanto would be easier
than
>learning similar roots in, say, Spanish? =20
 
It's not one whit easier -- for anybody! -- to learn 300 words, figurative
or otherwise, in Esperanto than it is in Spanish (or Chinese, or English).
 
The easy part comes when you try to make use of those words. Esperanto's
word formation system allows you to _immediately_ leverage those three
hundred words into a number of others. For some statistics on the matter,
compiled by Vilho SETA"LA" a number of years ago, check out
 
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/esplit/Efekta_Lingvo.html
 
There are also structural advantages (less with respect to some languages
than with respect to others) having to do with the smoothing out of
morphological irregularities (there are no "radical-changing" or irregular
verbs in Esperanto, for instance) and the streamlining of other parts; e.g.
Bob Petry recently pointed out in a posting on the Occidental verb how to
make the optative and hortative, as well as the imperative, forms in the
grammatically simple Occidental -- all of these are subsumed into one
single form in Esperanto.
 
If we were to lay out a coordinate graph with amount of vocabulary
available to the user as the ordinate and time spent as the abscissa, and
graph (e.g.) Spanish and Esperanto on it, you'd notice that the slopes of
both curves would be basically identical at zero (let's call them 45
degrees) and for some little way after that, but that the Esperanto curve
would start trending more towards the horizontal considerably sooner than
the Spanish curve, though, of course, neither would ever actually become
absolutely horizontal (if it did, it would probably mean that the
individual in question had either died or lost interest completely).*
 
The reason for "not going to the roots", such as they are, is that you
couldn't come back again, for reasons that you yourself state: the combined
words, originally created from several roots and/or affixes, have come to
have a meaning (sometimes figurative) too far from the combined meanings of
the originals. "To discuss", by the way, is "diskuti" (from which
"pridiskuti", "diskutado", "diskuta=E6i", "diskutema", "diskutemulo", etc.,
etc., via well-defined rules that anyone can apply).
 
>There are more Chinese speakers of
>Spanish than there are of Esperanto. =20
 
I think we need some statistics to demonstrate this. The only information I
have for comparison are (a) I've been told by several people that Esperanto
is the third most popular foreign language in China after English and
Japanese, and (b) when a nationwide Esperanto course was broadcast on
Chinese television several years ago, it picked up about twice as many
registered students as a similar course of French.
 
>I see a parallel here between the manner
>in which Esperanto's vocabulary was created and the manner in which
simplified
>characters in Chinese were created, i.e. without due consideration.  In
>Esperanto, the preliminary focus was on European nations only, so for non-
>native speakers, the benefits of Esperanto don't necessarily outweigh the
>disadvantages. In Chinese, the idea was to make the system easier for=
 people
>who already knew the traditional characters.  Can you see the parallel?
 
(In the following I'm assuming that when you say "non-native speakers" you
are referring to individuals who do not speak European languages as
natives...)
 
Oh, I can see the parallel. But, in fact, _experience_ shows that, whatever
theory may or may not say, the advantages _do_ outweigh the disadvantages.
Again, most African and Asian students of Esperanto are quick to point out
that (a) the language is _somewhat_ harder for them to learn than it is for
most (West) European students, specifically because of the vocabulary; and
(b) the language is _considerably_ easier for them to learn than any other
European language.** (The simplified Chinese characters are also easier for
me to remember than the older ones, in those cases where I find them
necessary to remember -- as for instance "yu", in "shi jie yu", the Chinese
name for "Esperanto".)
 
>Seeing as this post is getting a bit long, I'll continue that line of=
 thought
>if somebody responds.  Anyway, Don, I'll keep waiting for the day when I=
 can
>actually talk to someone in a foreign country in Esperanto, and I'll let=
 you
>know how many doors it opens.
>
Won't happen until you put your hand on the doorknob...
 
I'm satisfied with the lady on the Esperanto beginners' list who, after
reading about the possibility of chatting via ICQ, got her
thirteen-year-old son to help her install the Mirabilis software and then
(I don't suppose she'd mind me cutting and pasting a couple of sentences --
it was a public posting anyway -- "Estas vere mirinda! En nur 2
tagoj mi trovis multajn esperantistojn - en Brazilo, Koreio, Ukranio,
Bulgario ktp."
 
---
 
* This isn't, in its principle, a hypothetical graph, by the way; such
experiments have been carried out and their results recorded. Dr. Helmar
FRANK of the Institut fu"r Kybernetische Pa"dagogie (sp?) in Paderborn,
Germany, loves putting them in his papers on experiments teaching Esperanto
in schools of various countries and using it as a propaedeutic for the
learning of other languages.
 
** I've quoted this anecdote here before, but you may have missed it. My
best friend, QIAN Minqi, studied English through four years of high school
and five years of university with the intention (in which she succeeded) of
becoming a teacher of EFL (ultimately, in her alma mater, Huadong
University in Shanghai). In her fifth year she decided to study Russian as
a second foreign language, but several weeks into the term a government
official showed up in her classroom and said (more or less, and of course
not in English): "This year (1965) the World Esperanto Congress is going to
be held in Tokyo, and China is to be represented by a cadre of enthusiastic
young speakers of Esperanto. So we need some volunteers to be enthusiastic
young speakers of Esperanto. Those volunteers will be you, you, you..."
 
However she got stuck with learning the language, she tells me that after
one semester of Esperanto she felt considerably more at ease reading and
writing that language than she did with English after nine years of that
language.
 
Incidentally, she now lives here in the Bay Area of the United States,
after having visited here as one of the first "visiting scholars" after the
end of the Cultural Revolution. Something Opened a Door for her. I hesitate
to mention any nine-letter language names...
=20
 
-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/
(English version: http://www.webcom.com/~donh/dona.html)

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December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3
September 1998, Week 2
September 1998, Week 1
August 1998, Week 4
August 1998, Week 3
August 1998, Week 2
August 1998, Week 1
July 1998, Week 5
July 1998, Week 4
July 1998, Week 3
July 1998, Week 2
July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
October 1997, Week 2
October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
September 1997, Week 4
September 1997, Week 3
September 1997, Week 2
September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 5
August 1997, Week 4
August 1997, Week 3
August 1997, Week 2
August 1997, Week 1
July 1997, Week 5
July 1997, Week 4
July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 3
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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