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AUXLANG  September 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG September 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Lonely Planet

From:

Michael Farris <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:05:35 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (133 lines)

WARNING: If you dont' like the word 'ambiguous', then avoid this posting. Oh, it's
also long and full of unpleasant ideas  : (
 
Michael Farris wrote:
 
>
>
> J.A. Mills wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 9/5/98 8:23:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]
>> writes:
>>
>> <<
>>  > If Esperanto has so many
>>  > adherents, why don't the rest of us non-adherents ever see it being used,
>>  > rather than merely discussed?   I have access to languages like Korean
>>  > (radio), Armenian (neighbor), and Serbo-Croatian (J College).  I would
>> venture
>>  > to say that ANY IAL would gain in validity if they acted like real
>> languages.
>>
>>  How do you mean "like real languages"? I'd like to comment, but want to know
>> more
>>  of what you mean.
>>   >>
>>
>> Sorry for the delay in posting (been out of town).  Well, I may be out of
>> line, but most of the the time, I get the feeling that IAL's for somebody's
>> hobby
>
Well, most IAL's start as a single person's hobby (most never get past that
stage).
 
>> and not a language used by a community to faciliate its cultural needs.
>
>> I'm sure you've heard the line about first generation immigrants that they
>> usually curse, pray, and count in their native languages.  Are there any IAL
>> churches?  Are there any bilingual Esperantistos who've become so strong in
>> Esperanto that they've begun to forget their native language?  Are their any
>> gestures unique to any widespread IALs?
>>
>> So, can I have your comments now?
>
>
 
Mais oui, avec plasair.
 
Or maybe not, your simple query has me really stumped. I've started and abandoned
half a dozen or more answers. I _think_ I might have some idea now.
 
Thanks for the clarification. "like real languages" can mean tons of different
things, so I'm glad to have more of an idea of what you meant.
 
You seem to equate "Real" with "ethnic" languages, which is I think too limiting.
Nonetheless, you go right to the heart of the IAL dilemma. That problem is roughly
this: establishing a context.
 
A lot of stuff you mention would have to spontaneously arise from usage. I'm sure
that some of it does exist for Eo, but I'm no expert there. But this touches on an
important point. In my experience people that do come to like a foreign language
do so _Becasue of_ and not _in spite of_ little quirks. Part of Eo's appeal is
that it's full of little quirks (and some huge ones) that's one of the reasons so
many people end up loving it so much (and why so many others despise it).
 
Personally, I don't buy the old "An IAL will never work because it doesn't come
from a specific culture." argument. "International" English does come from the
context of English speaking countries but I think a lot of folks have the thing
hind-end-to if you get my meaning. The context of most languages is a specific
culture, so ergo whatever, folks think a language has to come from a specific
culture. The context of IAL's is (ideally) a meeting place for folks with
different first languages to meet in a non-hierarchical setting.
 
Eo users have of course come closest to creating this context, but have
unfortunately become in-grown and more concerned with using the language for its
own sake than in getting the thing in more general uncontrolled use. This is
partly due to their overconcern for preserving the nature of Zhof's original
design instead of letting the language change naturally. In short, they would like
for there to be more Esperantists but they don't want folks learning and using the
language unless they first swear allegience to the Fundamento.
 
This brings up another problem. That of realistic aims.  Eists tend to group at
either extreme, Finvenkismo which postulates world wide Eo/local language
bilingualism and Raumismo, which reserves the language purely for the initiated.
What's missing is a middle ground, concrete plans for getting people in the real
world to use the language in specific situations. I've tried from time to time to
steer discussion on this list on how such concrete plans could be made and been
met with a marked lack of enthusiasm.
 
Now this non-hierarchical setting is a problem for many people. Using English as a
contact language everybody knows who's who on the linguistic pecking order,
"educated" monolingual native speakers come first, "uneducated" native speakers
vie with "educated" second language speakers, etc. etc.
 
The linguistic caste-system enforced by English is complicated and probably not
uni-dimensonal. This is partly due to the ambiguous nature of bilinguals in some
African countries and South Asia, this is the heritage of the shameful colonial
past (and present) of English speaking cultures in action. Swahili/English
bilinguals might think of themselves as a native speaker. "Real" native speakers
aren't fooled. The same goes doubled for Indian English speakers.
 
I'm increasingly afraid that people are like dogs. Dogs are perfect proto-fascists
and prefer a rigid hierarchy in which they are at the bottom than the ambiguous
changing status that well-meaning but naive owners often give them.
 
Many, maybe most of the people in the world, prefer a more or less clear-cut
pecking order (in which they might be able to rise a bit) to anything approaching
equality. This is why non-English speaking countries of Western Europe (including
France) do more to promote the use of English in Poland than do English-speaking
countries. They know that the entrenched place of English in their home countries,
versus it's ambiguous status in Poland will doom the poor stupid Poles to decades
of catch-up, leaving them in that oh-so-comfortable position of cultural
superiority.
 
This reminds me of a close friend who lived for many years in Poland and went out
of her way not to learn Polish. She often seemed to me to be pathologically averse
to putting herself in a situation where Polish people could correct her. Forcing
as many people as she could to use English with her, she maintained an edge, she
could always correct them and they could never correct her.
 
In other words, the biggest obstacle facing IAL's is people's fear of losing
status vis a vis cultural undesirables. We've either got to play 'bait and switch'
promise a new hierarchy and not deliver or we've got to overcome this (largely
subconscious) fear.
 
All natural languages have ways of dividing the sheeps from the goats as it were.
IAL's ideally, don't. This is their strength and their weakness.
 
This isn't all I have to say about your post, but I'll give you a chance to
respond.
 
Mi amikel fughi,
Mike Farris

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