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AUXLANG  September 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG September 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Creoles / Minimal vocabularies (was Re: Signed Languages)

From:

Michael Farris <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:20:10 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (128 lines)

Chris Burd wrote:
 
> At 11:44 AM 14 09 98 -0700, charles wrote:
> >On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Michael Farris wrote:
> >
> >> Carlos Eugenio Thompson Pinz=C3=B3n wrote:
> >
> >> > inmertion in  their environmental language is corrective.  Creoles
> seems to
> >> > show some of that natural programming so the suggestion of using a=
 Creole
> >> > grammar with the vocabulary extracted from an existing auxlang lik=
e
> >> > Occidental, Interlingua or Glossa, is a good one.
>
> I think so too. In fact, it might make a good joint project for propone=
nts
> of different IALs in this group. After all, you can argue that every IA=
L
> *needs* a creole-like collateral form. The key to making such a project
> work would be to focus on structural issues and not to worry about mapp=
ing
> the lexicon onto one or another existing vocabulary. In the end, you co=
uld
> probably define several standards - a Novial version, an Ia version, an=
 Eo
> version - with essentially trivial differences between them.
>
> I've acquired a book on Tok Pisan. I don't whether that's considered a
> pidgin or a creole, or both. It's less regular than I expected. It also
> seems to lack a lot of the coordinating mechanisms we use in Western
> languages, especially in expository prose. Perhaps that's a function of=
 it
> being a pidgin rather than a creole.
 
As far as I know Tok Pisin (also called Neo-Melanesian) is a creole in th=
at it's a
first language for some speakers.
It is however somewhat unusual for a creole in that it was used as a pidg=
in for
several decades before the first native speakers appeared. It was also us=
ed among
people who spoke mutually unintelligible languages which differed primari=
ly in
surface details and vocabulary, but which were fairly similar. Thus, it w=
as more
easily able to pick up features from those languages. I believe for examp=
le that
Tok Pisin distinguishes transitive and intransitive verbs with the suffix=
 -im
(from him) is in 'mi rid' "I read" and 'Mi ridim buk'. "I'm reading a boo=
k."
For these two reasons (longer than usual period as a pidgin, absorption o=
f native
linguistic features) Bickerton excluded Rok Pisin from his book "Roots of
Langauge" which examines more traditional pidgin-to-creole transformation=
s. This
book, along with one by, I believe Robert Hall called Pidgins and Creoles=
 are
classic texts in  Creole linguistics.
 
 
 
>
>
> Anyway, when I get a chance, I'll put together some samples of an
> IALA-based Parla Pidgin.
 
I think we've got two different issues here. One is creole structure and =
another
is vocabulary size and I'd like them to be kept separate. Limited vocabul=
ary is
_not_ a defining feature of Creoles. Most Creoles do have smallish techni=
cal
vocabularies, but this is a function of linguistic prejuidice and suppres=
sion
rather than a definition of what a Creole is.
 
Having said that. I do think that a) modelling an IAL's grammar after a g=
eneral
creole grammar is a smashingly good idea and b) having a subset of the vo=
cabulary
800-1000 words serve as a basic foundation that beginning teaching materi=
als are
based on is another really good idea.
 
>
>
> >I was reading that a "complete" Latin vocabulary is approximately
> >15000 words, with 3000 sufficient for 99% of the time; obviously
> >these are fuzzy numbers, but compare about equally well with Esperanto
> >and Glosa, as opposed to English where vocabulary is much larger.
> >Interlingua seems unnecessarily large (around 25000), in accordance
> >with its "a posteriori" nature.
>
> You have to compare apples with apples. The 3000-word figure you quote =
for
> Eo probably refers to root words only, while the majority of the 27,000
> words in the IED are compound words. Actually, 27,000 was a more-or-les=
s
> arbitrary cut-off point for purposes of compiling the Dictionary. Even =
in
> 1951 the total Interlingua vocabulary - i.e., the number of internation=
al
> words eligible under IALA's selection criteria - was estimated at more =
than
> 100,000, the vast majority being obscure neo-Latin scientific and techn=
ical
> terms. By now it must be close to a million.
>
 
You'll find that people that make breezy claims about the number of words=
 in a
language's vocabulary are generally not linguists. Some languages prefer =
to have
lots of discrete lexical units (such as English) while others prefer a sm=
aller
stock with productive derivational processes (Polish). As a simplified ex=
ample,
English has discrete words for 'curious' and 'nosy', Polish uses a more-o=
r-less
regular derivational process 'ciekawy'  and 'ciekawski'. Does Polish have=
 one or
two words compared to English's two? I'm not sure.
 
Amikel,
Mike farris

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