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AUXLANG  September 1998, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1998, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Esperanto what for? (fwd)

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:17:07 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (153 lines)

Je 10:55 PM 27.09.98 BST, James Chandler skribis:
 
>Ken Caviness rote:
>
>> Perhaps you mean a "different" phonetic spelling, perhaps a "more=
 natural"
>> phonetic spelling?  I believe that Esperanto's spelling already is
>> phonetic, learn the sound of each letter and then "No worries, mate!"
>
>I would go as far as to say that Esp's spelling is in general acceptably
>phonetic, and is at least _as_ phonetic as, say, Ido's.  But I could not in
>good conscience go as far as Ken does and describe Esp's spelling as
>"phonetic" (where what is presumably meant is "completely phonetic") or as
>"one sound - one symbol", and this for two reasons: 1. the problem which to
>my mind was never resolved of C=3D[ts];=20
 
Ah.
 
Well, people who know more about this than I have said that C=3D[ts] is _not=
_
correct, but merely a first approximation to a sound which doesn't exist in
English.  Perhaps we should get in the habit of writing C ~~ [ts].
 
Now it might be possible to get into a big discussion on whether a sound is
a sound or a combination of sounds (many examples from English vowels,
termed "impure" by speakers of some other languages:  we consider them to
be one sound, others hear more), but frankly I don't expect such a
discussion to be particularly useful. =20
 
But you, James, know all this -- you have raised the question before, it
has been discussed, and yet you still view "the problem" as "never
resolved". =20
 
Are we all completely wasting our time here on auxlang? =20
 
 
>2. the fact that placing a circumflex
>over a letter has different effects on different letters; a truly phonetic
>spelling system would not allow one modification in C -> C^, S -> S^, and
>totally incomparable ones in J -> J^, G -> G^, H -> H^.
 
Ho, ho!  That's a view I haven't run into before. =20
 
Well, that's an easy one:  "C^" is _not_ a diphthong, not produced by
combining two elements of the Esperanto alphabet, but it is a separate
letter.  Always pronounced as the sound represented in English by the
diphthong "ch" in "chew", "choose", etc.
 
No one has ever (to my knowledge) claimed that adding a circumflex to a
character in Esperanto results in a particular modification of the previous
sound.  (And worse yet, you appear to be using the idiosyncratic English
spelling system as a comparative yardstick:  c^ =3D "ch" (not "tsch", for
example), s^ =3D "sh" (not "ch" or "sch", for example), and then wonder why
the other supersigned letters don't fit with this perceived pattern!  This
is clearly _not_ a valid pattern in Esperanto, since t^ does not give "th",
p^ does not give "ph"/"f", nor, in fact can a "^" be added to any and all
letters.)
 
Quick question:  does it bother anyone that in German and Hungarian (at
least), the letter =F6 (o", o-umlaut) has a completely different sound than
"o"?  It's a different letter, that's all.
 
Also note that in Esperanto, "-" is not a sound-permuting symbol either.
"G" is not a "C" which has had a transform "-" applied to it, neither is
"t" an "l" which has been "-"-tranformed.  G, C, T, L, G^, C^, etc., are
all unique letters.
 
So, yes, I would say that Esperanto is phonetic.  You learn the sound of
each letter, and each letter retains its sound even when put in combination
with other letters in words.  This would appear to me to be a _good_thing_
in a planlingvo.
 
Incidentally, I have no major bone to pick with Ido on this score.  Adding
2 diphthongs is not a great additional load, even for learners for whom
those particular 2-letter combinations are foreign.  But it does seem
rather needless, and I don't think we could call it an improvement!
 
Again, different priorities.
 
>> It has been pointed out that using different suffixes might have resulted
>> in more natural-looking derived words, but it also gives in some
>> odd-looking results as well, and an effort to eliminate them gives rise=
 to
>> a need for either multiple roots for the same concept (and learning when=
 to
>> use which) or new rules for mutating the root words (and learning when to
>> use them).  Possibly more trouble than it's worth, especially in an IAL
>> whose intended field of use extends beyond WENSA speakers.
>
>Ken, I personally find this incomprehensible.  It seems to me that you are
>saying that as soon as you move away from the artificial affixes of Esp,
>you immediately have to adopt a derivation system as in Occ, or double
>stems and such like as in I-a.  If this _is_ what you are saying, then I'm
>afraid it is just plain false, and quite obviously so.  If _not_ (and I am
>far from sure that it is), then I simply don't understand.
 
I guess I'm particularly thinking of the recent Occidental postings from
Bob Petry, in which the artificiality of Esperanto (and Ido) affixes has
been a major theme.  For example, I can sympathize with using "-tion" as
the suffix which creates a noun from a verb.  That's familiar to me from
English and French, not too strange from Spanish, etc.  So "exclamation"
from "exclaim", "communication" from "communicate", "cooperation" from
"cooperate", etc.  Then I notice that it's not simply a matter of adding a
suffix, but deciding whether to omit a "t", add an extra vowel, change the
stem, or simply use another suffix altogether or else we get unfamiliar
words:  "help" -> "help(a)tion", "sing" -> "singation".  Clearly this
doesn't work in English, nor in any of the source languages of Interlingua,
for instance.  I'm trying to say that using roots that are familiar (to me)
and affixes that are familiar (to me) will not necessarily result in
derived words that are familiar (to me, or to anyone else, for that matter).=
 =20
 
So one has to add additional rules to make things come out right.  Now the
rules in Occ are designed to make not only the root words look familiar to
prospective speakers (of whatever group is aimed at) but also the _whole_
word.  Ido and Esperanto don't add these extra rules, and as a consequence,
even if you recognize the parts of a word, the whole word may not look
quite as familiar.  (Doesn't seem like a problem to me, one gets in the
habit of parsing unfamiliar words into familiar elements.)
 
I would like to see simple rules for parsing derived words in English,
French, etc.  Clearly derived words exist.  It would be nice for an IAL
based on these (or other) languages to match both simple and derived words,
but the fit will never be perfect, since we're fitting to exception-filled
"natural" languages.
 
In this respect I find Ido to be quite good -- additional care was taken in
selecting root words (although sometimes the changes from Esperanto strike
me as nitpicking), and good use is made of affixes.  The creators of
Occidental and Interlingua had other priorities, and then (unfairly!),
other planlingvoj are judged unsuitable because of their (different) design
choices and goals.  As I understand it, Jespersen in Novial tried to
increase recognizability of derived words by adding a very few permutation
rules.  There's a whole spectrum of solutions here -- I certainly wasn't
saying that the only options are the Esperanto/Ido emphasis on roots and
regular word-building, or Occidental's rules, or Interlingua's multiple
roots and suffixes.  What I was trying to say is that depending on one's
priorities, language design might well lead in one of these directions.  Or
quite possibly in other directions which I haven't thought about.
 
This topic interests me!  I'd be happy to hear what others have to say on
the subject.
 
Amike salutas
 
Ken
 
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*
  | Ken CAVINESS           Physics at Southern Adventist University |
  | [log in to unmask]             ESPERANTO =3D Lingvo internacia |
  | http://southern.edu/~caviness/     E-o/English/Fran=E7ais/Deutsch |
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*

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December 2003, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 3
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September 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
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February 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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