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AUXLANG  September 1998, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1998, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Esperanto what for? (fwd)

From:

James Chandler <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 29 Sep 1998 23:00:19 BST

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (112 lines)

Ken Caviness rote:
 
> But you, James, know all this -- you have raised the question before, it
> has been discussed, and yet you still view "the problem" as "never
> resolved". =20
>
> Are we all completely wasting our time here on auxlang? =20
 
Well, perhaps it is a bit mischevious of me to answer this with the
benefit of hindsight, but seeing as several people have now made several
further interesting and even illuminating points on this subject, I rather
think that it was _not_ a waste of time to bring it up.
 
> >2. the fact that placing a circumflex
> >over a letter has different effects on different letters; a truly phonetic
> >spelling system would not allow one modification in C -> C^, S -> S^, and
> >totally incomparable ones in J -> J^, G -> G^, H -> H^.
>
> Ho, ho!  That's a view I haven't run into before. =20
 
You have now.
 
> Well, that's an easy one:  "C^" is _not_ a diphthong, not produced by
> combining two elements of the Esperanto alphabet, but it is a separate
> letter.  Always pronounced as the sound represented in English by the
> diphthong "ch" in "chew", "choose", etc.
 
To all intents and purposes, c^ _is_ a product of two separate elements of
the Esp orthography, if only by virtue of the fact that so many of those
learning Esp are already familiar with both elements c and ^ as independent
orthographic elements.  I'm actually rather surprised that Espsists would
try to insist otherwise.
 
> No one has ever (to my knowledge) claimed that adding a circumflex to a
> character in Esperanto results in a particular modification of the previous
> sound.  (And worse yet, you appear to be using the idiosyncratic English
> spelling system as a comparative yardstick:  c^ =3D "ch" (not "tsch", for
> example), s^ =3D "sh" (not "ch" or "sch", for example), and then wonder why
> the other supersigned letters don't fit with this perceived pattern!  This
> is clearly _not_ a valid pattern in Esperanto, since t^ does not give "th",
> p^ does not give "ph"/"f", nor, in fact can a "^" be added to any and all
> letters.)
 
Perhaps I was going by the fact that according to Z, sh = s^ = [S], and
ch = c^ = [tS].  Thus we could also have zh = z^ = [Z], for instance.
But if we are considering the sounds of the Esp letters themselves, then
the situation is even worse, because then apparently the ^ _never_ makes
the same modification to two different letters.
 
> Quick question:  does it bother anyone that in German and Hungarian (at
> least), the letter =F6 (o", o-umlaut) has a completely different sound than
> "o"?  It's a different letter, that's all.
 
But in a planned language, perhaps it would be better to use diacritics
more systematically, especially if you are going to claim that the spelling
is "completely phonetic".
 
> Also note that in Esperanto, "-" is not a sound-permuting symbol either.
> "G" is not a "C" which has had a transform "-" applied to it, neither is
> "t" an "l" which has been "-"-tranformed.  G, C, T, L, G^, C^, etc., are
> all unique letters.
 
I fail to see the relevance of any of this.
 
> So, yes, I would say that Esperanto is phonetic.  You learn the sound of
> each letter, and each letter retains its sound even when put in combination
> with other letters in words.  This would appear to me to be a _good_thing_
> in a planlingvo.
>
> Incidentally, I have no major bone to pick with Ido on this score.  Adding
> 2 diphthongs is not a great additional load, even for learners for whom
> those particular 2-letter combinations are foreign.  But it does seem
> rather needless, and I don't think we could call it an improvement!
>
> Again, different priorities.
 
From where I am standing, it appears that the priority of Espists is to
adhere rigidly to the sacred Fundamento, whereas that of Idists is to
provide a language that can be reproduced unproblematically anywhere
without any special set-up.  So yes, different priorities, but I know
which ones I would go with...
 
> I guess I'm particularly thinking of the recent Occidental postings from
> Bob Petry, in which the artificiality of Esperanto (and Ido) affixes has
> been a major theme.  For example, I can sympathize with using "-tion" as
> the suffix which creates a noun from a verb.  That's familiar to me from
> English and French, not too strange from Spanish, etc.  So "exclamation"
> from "exclaim", "communication" from "communicate", "cooperation" from
> "cooperate", etc.  Then I notice that it's not simply a matter of adding a
> suffix, but deciding whether to omit a "t", add an extra vowel, change the
> stem, or simply use another suffix altogether or else we get unfamiliar
> words:  "help" -> "help(a)tion", "sing" -> "singation".  Clearly this
> doesn't work in English, nor in any of the source languages of Interlingua,
> for instance.  I'm trying to say that using roots that are familiar (to me)
> and affixes that are familiar (to me) will not necessarily result in
> derived words that are familiar (to me, or to anyone else, for that matter).=
>  =20
 
Look, choosing affixes according to a principle of maximum internationality
does not have to override an autonomistic approach.  It is possible to
adopt -ion in all its forms, and for that you need slightly more
complicated derivation rules, as in Nov/Occ, but you could equally well
just take e.g. -ation (or -asion, -acion etc.) and join it to an invariant
root.  Your argument seems to me emotional rather than rational and I'm
afraid holds no water.
 
[In fact, you don't _have_ to use -ion at all: you could just use e.g.
-o for the verbal noun, -ur for the result etc., all perfectly defensible
and necessitating no derivation rules more complicated than those in Esp.]
 
James Chandler

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