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AUXLANG  September 1998, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1998, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Esperanto what for? (fwd)

From:

Michael Farris <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:42:45 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (38 lines)

Don Blaheta wrote:
 
> Quoth Michael Farris:
> > In English [ts] is always a cluster as it fails the primary test of English
> > phonemes in that in cannot appear initially in a word. Those words borrowed into
> > English with an initial [ts] find it reduced to [s] or more rarely [t]. Further
> > almost every example of [ts] in English comes about from one morpheme ending in a
> > [t] and the next beginning with a [s] as in 'cats'.
>
> A distinction should be made here: /t+s/ is always a cluster, sometimes
> realized as the Esperanta [ts], sometimes not.  Don H was just saying
> (I think) that the sound represented by Esperanto's 'C' did occur in
> English, even if it wasn't the sound people would first think of when
> presented with the digraph "ts".
>
> > The few words with morpheme internal [ts] such as 'flotsam' are
> > quickly revealed to have the syllable structure flot-sam.
>
> Indeed; and I pronounce the t-s combination there pretty much as I would
> pronounce t and s separately; but e.g. in "dates" the sound is slightly
> different, and close to (what I understand is) the 'c' of Esperanto.
 
My whole point is that "sounds" is a sort of meaningless concept in linguistics. You
need an idea of how everything fits together. And of course, everything fits together
differently in different languages.  In English [t] + [s] may have slightly different
sounds depending (mostly) on their position in the word and and location of stress. But
in english [t] + [s] is always a combination of two separate phonemes, unlike [t] + [S]
which in English is almost always a single phoneme.
 
As for Eo's sound system, it's obvious that Zhof took the sound system of Polish and
simplified it somewhat (cz + c' = ch). It's a pity that he didn't know that Polish 'ch'
and 'h' were rapidly falling together into a single phoneme (they were distinguished in
some dialects in his day) and gave Eo equivalents to both Polish 'ch' = Eo h^ and 'h' =
h (very roughly).
 
Amikel,
Mike Farris

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