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AUXLANG  September 1998, Week 5

AUXLANG September 1998, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Esperanto what for? (fwd)

From:

"Donald J. Harlow" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:34:22 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (96 lines)

Je 05:28 PM 9/28/98 +0100, Michael FARRIS skribis:
 
>Don HARLOW wrote:
>
>> Actually, this sound _does_ exist in English, as a single sound --
>> most often as the termination of the plural of nouns ending in -T or
>> the third person singular of verbs ending in -T.
>
>Uh .... no. In English /ts/ is _always_ a cluster of two phonemes t + s
(see below)
>
>> Many
>> English-speakers (I mention no names) are misled by the fact that
>> it's written "ts" rather than with a single character into supposing
>> that it is, in fact, two sounds -- which, of course, requires the
>> assumption that English is a phonetically-written language.
>>
>> The [ts] sound, written in Esperanto as 'c', is an affricate, which,
>> in terms of tongue position, falls about halfway between the dental
>> plosive 't' and the sibilant 's'. It is _not_ a sequence of those two
>> sounds.
>
>The question of whether a [ts] (or a [tS] sound is one or two sounds is a
tricky
>one that depends on the language in question. In Polish, c (same spelling
as Eo) is
>undoubtedly one phoneme and is phonetically distinct from [t+s] at least
>theoretically just as t + S in Polish (usually written trz in Polish) is
distinct
>from cz or c(with an acute accent). The last two of those are separate
from each
>other in Polish and sound very different to Poles (and exactly the same to
>non-Poles, except maybe Mandarin speakers). I say 'theoretically' because
some
>Poles do pronound [c] and [ts] identically, but this is considered sloppy.
>
>In English [ts] is always a cluster as it fails the primary test of English
>phonemes in that in cannot appear initially in a word. Those words
borrowed into
>English with an initial [ts] find it reduced to [s] or more rarely [t].
Further
>almost every example of [ts] in English comes about from one morpheme
ending in a
>[t] and the next beginning with a [s] as in 'cats'.
>
As a _speaker_ of at least one variant of English (General Western North
American), I can't agree with this.
 
First, in all the borrowed words I can think of offhand, everybody I know
_does_ say the initial [ts] as a single sound similar to the Esperanto 'c':
tsar, tsunami, tsetse. If you doubt, just watch any American evening news
program for the next discussion of the "War on Drugs" and see how they
describe General Barry McCaffrey (yes, I know it's spelled "czar" and not
"tsar" there, but as far as I can tell it's the same thing, pronounced the
same way -- just that the second spelling is reserved for the Imperial
ruler of pre-communist Russia, while the first spelling is more generally
used for any second-rate autocrat).*
 
Second, in home-grown English words that split their syllables between a
't' and an 's', many if not all (at least here) carry the 't' over to the
second syllable and convert the [ts] into a 'c', as see below.
 
>The few words with morpheme internal [ts] such as 'flotsam' are quickly
revealed to
>have the syllable structure flot-sam.
>
Not the way we pronounce it here; it's (using Esperanto pronunciation of
the letters) FLA-cm (in slow speech) or FLA!-cm (in rapid speech, with the
'!' being a stop). Similarly, G^E(!)-cm for the commonly accompanying
"jetsam". I think I've mentioned the common pronunciation of "best-seller"
before -- not "best-SEL-lr" but "bes-CEL-r". And it's not clear to me that
a sound used to start a syllable inside a word is all that different from a
sound used to start a word.
 
For me, the acid test is pronouncing and holding the single sound. 'c'
treated this way is not "tstststststststststs", nor is it "tssssssssssss";
it is "cccccccccccc". (In fact the interjection "tssssss", pronounced
differently than "ccccc", does exist in Esperanto; it corresponds to the
English "=FE=FE=FE=FE=FE=FE". The Kregish "tsleetha-tsleethi", which means=
 much the
same, is probably pronounced with the 'c'.*)
 
---
 
* Actually, this is a bad example, when I think about it, because I think
McCaffrey is more often described as a "dzar" than a "tsar". Same
principle, however.
=20
** Akers, Alan Burt (Kenneth Bulmer): _Transit to Scorpio_, plus
innumerable sequels.
=20
 
-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/
(English version: http://www.webcom.com/~donh/dona.html)

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