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CONLANG  October 1998, Week 3

CONLANG October 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: LANGUAGE LAWS

From:

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:49:50 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (143 lines)

At 7:03 pm -0400 17/10/98, Nik Taylor wrote:
>Tommie Powell wrote:
>> A trade language abandons that approach, and lets its speakers express all
>> sorts of ideas very sloppily.

That's a gross generalization.  What evidence do you have that all sorts of
ideas are presented very sloppily?   Or are you confusing reduced
morphology with "sloppiness"?

Pidgins that are devised ad_hoc do indeed have unstable grammar, probably
because the speakers are working with different grammars.  But such pidgins
are short lived.  When a pidgin gets used over & over again, its grammar
stabilizes like any other language - it has to if understanding is to be
achieved.  The classic example of this is the AngloChinese Pidgin which
gave us the word pidgin.   I understood that the Chinook pidgin was of this
kind.  So I ask: What is the evidence that trade languages allow speakers
to express all sorts of ideas sloppily?

>>And the modern languages -- which IMO are
>> descended from trade languages -- have reduced that grammatical sloppiness
>> by adding layer upon layer of complexities (genders, cases, declensions,
>> etc.) that the Stone Age languages lacked.
>
>That's jumping to conclusions, don't you think?

Amen!

What does Mr Powell mean by "the modern languages"?  Does he mean all
languages now spoken - except those spoken by "stone-age" cultures?  How
does he class Zulu, Xhosa, Hausa, Igbo, Georgian, Tamil, Malayalam, Khmer
etc.?  Or does he mean "modern IE languages"?    Even so - WHAT EVIDENCE
does he adduce to support the claim that "the modern languages" are
descended from trade languages?

What shred of evidence does he have that Stone Age languages lacked
genders, cases, declensions etc.?  Indeed, I'd be extremely surprised if
this astonishing claim were true.

>I mean, there's so few "stone age" languages to study,

But as Hawksinger rightly points out:
"There are about a gazillion 'stone age' languages to study.  Try about
1000 in New Guinea, ALL of the Americas at contact and many of those......"

>And most stone age languages *do* have genders, case,
>etc.

Exactly.  So what is Tommie Powell's evidence.

>
>> So
>> the Chinook Jargon's grammar cannot be due to European influence.  Yet its
>> grammar is very much like that of all other "pidgins" -- and very unlike the
>> grammar of the language of any tribe that shared that trade language!
>
>Also, you're mixing another theory in with that.  You state that this
>trade language shares many features with other pidgins around the
>world.  Of course, if the universal grammar theory is correct, that's
>*exactly* what you would expect.

Indeed, that could be one explanation. But what is the evidence that there
no European influence in the grammar?  As far as I can see, there can be no
record of the Chinook jargon until someone can record it in writing (or
electrically/ electonically ...but let's discount that).  I'm not aware of
any written records in this area before the arrival of Europeans.  So be
the time the language is recorded in writing, some European interference
surely cannot be discounted.  And how do we know what Chinook may have been
like in the before this time?

>European languages, perhaps that's merely suggestive of a pidginization
>of proto-Indo-European, rather than a common feature of "modern"
>languages (unless by "modern" you mean "European")

Quite.

The theory that the Germanic languages are derived from a IE based creole
developed from trade jargon used along the "amber trade" route has been
advanced before and, indeed, may well be true.  The proto-IE itself may
have been a creole developed on the Asian Steppes may be so.  The process
of language contact, pidginization & creolization must have happened quite
a few times in the many millennia homo sapiens sapiens has been speaking.
It may well have happened in the New world more than once before the
arrival of Europeans.

And at 9:40 pm -0400 17/10/98, Nik Taylor wrote:
>Tommie Powell wrote:
>> And I don't think
>> we should ignore them, when the only natural languages that resemble
>>computer
>> programming languages are languages of Stone Age people.
>
>I'm having a hard time believing this.

You're not the only one!  I'm just finding it quite impossible to get my
head round this one.

>Could you point me to the
>research that leads to your characterizing these languages as resembling
>computer programming languages?

Which computer programming languages?  I guess not Assembly languages.
Does he mean languages like LISP or Prolog?  I guess Mr Powell means the
block-structured sort of the Algol, Pascal, C type & all their modern
progeny?

>For instance, what do you mean by "the
>foundation of each sort of expression is a unique string of syllables,
>and the expression is completed by inserting words before and/or after
>each of those syllables"?

I've been kinda wondering that too.  I thought it was just me being thick.

This contrast between supposed "Stone Age" computer-type languages & "the
modern languages" looks to me suspiciously like yet another variant of the
'primitive language/ modern language', 'inferior language/ superior
language' argument again.  And my opinion of _that_ is, I think, clear
enough.

It reminds me of a similar exchange a year or so back where "primitive
Stone Age" language was being contrasted with the "developed modern
languages".  IIRC the exchange then was on Auxlang.  The "Stone Age"
language then was the typical comic-book type:   "Ug no like Ig. Ug kill
Ig."

Now the "Stone Age" language is 'computer like'!!  What?
"BEGIN
    Person1 is Ug
    Person2 is Ig
    NOT( like( Person1, Person2))
    kill( Person1, Person2)
END"

Nah - I'm finding it darn hard to believe this.

Indeed, I have yet to find any credible evidence that there is a
substantial difference between "Stone Age" and modern languages (except, of
course, in vocabulary).  I have little doubt that were I able to go back
three or four thousand years iin time, I'd find similar variety &
complexities of grammar as we find now, with declensions, conjugations,
aspects, moods & the like.

Ray.

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