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CONLANG  October 1998, Week 3

CONLANG October 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: GROUPLANG : POLL2 (Re: cases, modifiers, pronouns)

From:

Christophe Grandsire <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:13:24 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (156 lines)

At 20:54 19/10/98 -0000, you wrote:
>>From the last poll we could draw the conclusion that the majority of us
would like :
>
>- prefixed cases.
>
>- suffixed genders or classifiers.
>
>- postpositions and/or supensive predicate.
>
>Further discussions apparently show that a majority would like :
>
>- 'case+argument + predicate' order.
>
>- both noun- and verb-rooted predicates.
>
>1. The following cases have been most suggested :
>
>1.1. Cases used with verb-rooted predicates :
>
>- ergative =3D transitive nominative ERG=3DTNOM  : erg-me to-be-red =3D I=
 redden
(him); erg-me to-rise =3D I raise; erg-me bite =3D I bite.
>
>- absolutive =3D undergoer =3D intransitive nominative ABS=3DUND=3DINOM :=
 abs-me
to-rise =3D I rise; abs-me to-be-red =3D I am/become red.
>
>Nota : this is not a genuine absolutive which should be passive as in
Basque as in :
>abs-me to-be-cut =3D I'm cut =3D> erg-me abs-it to-be-cut =3D I cut it.
>
>- patientive =3D accusative PAT=3DACC : pat-me to-bite =3D I'm bitten.
>
>- causative CAUS : caus-me erg-he red =3D I have him redden (something);
caus-me erg-he fall =3D I have him fell; erg-me food =3D I apply food =3D I=
 feed
(someone).
>
>- dative DAT : dat-me to-give =3D I'm given (a gift).
>
>1.2. Cases used with noun-rooted predicates :
>
>- agentive AGE : age-me stream =3D I stream; age-me club =3D I beat; age-me
gift =3D I'm given (as a gift); age-me image =3D I'm seen.
>
>- ergative ERG : erg-me red =3D I apply red on him; erg-me fall =3D I apply
fall on him =3D I make him fall; erg-me hammer =3D I apply hammer =3D I=
 hammer
(with a tool).
>
>- patientive PAT : pat-me red =3D I'm applied red colour; pat-me club =3D=
 I'm
clubbed; pat-me eye =3D I'm looked at.
>
>- absolutive ABS : abs-me eye =3D abs-image =3D I see; abs-seat =3D I sit;=
 abs-me
fruit : I bear fruit; abs-me rise =3D I rise; abs-me gift =3D I'm given (a=
 gift).
>
>- attributive ATT : att-me home =3D I live in (a cave); att-me brother =3D=
 I've
a brother; att-me ears =3D I've ears; att-me smoke =3D I (release) smoke;=
 etc.
>
>- causative CAUS : caus-me erg-he red =3D I have him redden; caus-me erg-he
fall =3D I have him fell something.
>

        Everything's fine for me. Choose what you prefer.

>1.3. Case used with arguments :
>
>- genitive GEN : dog gen-me / gen-me dog  =3D my dog
>

        I thought we could use ATT in place of GEN.

>2. Suggested degrees of integration were :
>
>- thema + rhema (topic) THEM + RHEM : them-(abs)-dog red =3D the dog, she's
red; OR dog red =3D the dog, (she's) red.
>
>- argument + predicate + ARG + PRED : erg-dog pat/acc-me bite =3D dog bites=
 me.
>
>- modifier + noun / modifier + predicate =3D MOD + NOUN/PRED : mod-red dog=
 =3D
red dog; erg-me mod-hard bite =3D I bite hard.
>
>- phrase + determinant / noun + determinant =3D PHR/NOUN + DET : det-pat-me
bite dog =3D the dog who bites me.
>
>- clause + relative + sub-clause =3D CL + REL + SUBCL : dog erg-it pat-me
bite =3D the dog who bites me / the dog biting me; dog abs-it red =3D red=
 dog;
erg-dog pat-me abs-which hard bite =3D dog bites me hard.
>

        I prefer the last one.

>3. Suggested pronouns were :
>
>3.1. Personal pronouns (spacial deixis - no genders discussed here) :
>
>- 1, 2, 3, 3bis

        Not bad.

>- 1sg, 1pl, 2sg, 2pl, 3sg, 3pl

        Too much common.

>- 1incl, 1excl, 2incl, 2excl, 3

        I like it. I'll vote for it.

>- polite-less-polite-even-less-polite

        I prefer only two degrees of politeness: polite familiar (I don't
like too much politeness, my own experience makes me think of hypocrisy. Do
you want a hypocritical language?).

>etc.
>
>3.2. Relative/resumptive pronouns (syntactic deixis) :
>
>latter/former/next one : dog erg-last_one pat-me bite =3D dog who bites me
>latter/this/next fact : erg-dog abs-this_fact hard pat-me bite =3D dog=
 bites
me hard; arg-dog pat-me bite att-latter_fact hard =3D dog bites me hard.
>

        What is the difference?

>Please make your choice and comments on items 1.1 through 3.2.
>
>Suggested next step : postpositions/adverbal subclause; word-order in
subclause; genders/classifiers; derived nouns, state/action nouns ('the one
bitten', 'the maker', 'the fact of eating'); aspects, moods ('want to',
'can', 'must', etc.) tenses, negative; for verb-rooted predicates : passive,
(antipassive ?).
>
>Mathias
>
>-----
>Free e-mail group hosting at http://www.eGroups.com/
>
>
                                                Christophe Grandsire
                                                |Sela Jemufan Atlinan C.G.

"R=E9sister ou servir"

homepage: http://www.bde.espci.fr/homepage/Christophe.Grandsire/index.html

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