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CONLANG  October 1998, Week 4

CONLANG October 1998, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Gender

From:

"Raymond A. Brown" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:36:55 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (84 lines)

At 10:05 pm -0500 22/10/98, Carlos Thompson wrote:
>De: John Cowan <[log in to unmask]>
>Fecha: Jueves 22 de Octubre de 1998 16:05
.........
>>
>>Well, I'll be a bit contentious here, and say that the meaning of "gender"
>>to which you refer is logically as well as etymologically sound.  As
>>you of course know but others may not, "gender" < "genus, gener-" =
>>"kind, class, category".

Yes, it's was originally spelt 'gendre' and was the old French (mdern
'genre') derivative of the Latin word.

>> We may therefore sensibly speak of gender
>>in nouns whenever they are divided into categories that engender (:-))
>>differences in the surrounding syntax.

We may, indeed, and do.

>>Likewise, those who speak of "gender differences" between persons are
>>referring not to biological sex but to socially constructed categories
>>which often have some connection to biological sex but are by no means
>>determined by it.  "Masculine" and "feminine" are names of genders,
>>either of nouns or of persons: they are not the only possible names.

Yeah - I agree 'masculine' & 'feminine' are possible gender names and,
indeed, are traditionally used of gender divisions in IE and Semitic
languages.  Sexes are 'male' & 'female'.

I accept the "gender differences" notion you give above but I think if we
get heavily into discussing this area we might well stray into a mine field
& will certainly get some way from CONLANG.

>But many programs for personal information management, like Outlook, have a
>"gender" option which would classify your contacts between male and female.

This is the inaccurate the use that I do find annoying since it blurs the
two distinct notions and impoverishes the language since clearly the writer
equates sex=gender, male=masculine, female=feminine - i.e. it's all a
matter of simple biology.

This is certainly wrong in linguistic terms.  I have not noticed that
bridges in France are equipped with male reproductive organs of any kind
nor have have noticed Welsh bridges endowed with any female reproductive
organs; nor, I think, could one breed from introduced le pont francais with
y bont Gymreig.  Yet according to the grammar of the languages "pont" is
masculine in French and feminine in Welsh.

And those who discuss gender differences are concerned with whole socially
constructed categories that may have little or no real connexion with
biological sex.  Indeed, without wishing to be at all contentious, it seems
to me that one could have a contact who is biological 'male'but socially
'feminine', and likewise a socially 'masculine' contact who is biologically
'female'.

>Actually it doesn't bother me in the English versions of the software...
>maybe because if been influence about "gender" meaning sex.  But I kinda
>hate when in the Spanish version the option is translated _ge'nero_... even
>if Spanish only have two genders (ge'neros): _masculino_ and _femenino_ the
>word _ge'nero_ does not quite fit in my brain structure for _classifying_ my
>contacts that way.

Quite right too - don't let your language get impoverished also.

>It maight be becouse the fact is most common to hear about
>_el_ge'nero_humano_ in general, no grammatical situations than
>_el_ge'nero_femenino_, and what would be called _gender_war_ in an English
>composition, would be called _guerra_de_los_sexos_ in a Spanish one.  (Maybe
>not in a translation.)

...and 'war of the sexes' may also be heard in English.  Indeed, it's my
understanding (possibly wrong) that those actually concerned with "gender
issues" in the socialogical sense are generally of the opinion that sex
difference is an accident of birth & doesn't count for much, except in
purely biological terms, and that the 'war of the sexes' is a needless
state of affairs brought about by macho patriarchal society.  Indeed, I
basically agree with that.

But I don't want to get side-tracked into sociological issues and, in any
case, won't be able to continue this debate for a few days as I leave early
tomorrow morning for France - will be back Tuesday evening.

Ray.

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