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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  November 1998, Week 1

CONLANG November 1998, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Let's return to conlanging (was: Li Lingue Modern)

From:

Joshua Shinavier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Joshua Shinavier <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:13:01 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (142 lines)

> I have gotten the sense over the years and especially since AUXLANG was
> created, that many/most people on the list think that CONLANG is only
> for language design, for talking about languages still in their earliest
> phase of discussion/proposal.  A language whose design is "done" like
> Lojban's seems unwelcome.  I'm not surethat anyone SAYS this, but the att=
itude
> still comes across by the way people respond to certain kinds of posts, o=
f the
> sort that Lojban discussions are likely to take.  At best unfriendly, mor=
e
> often, simply ignored, merely acknowledged and not followed up.

I've only been here since May, so I don't know what Conlang might have been=
 like
earlier, but it's true that posts dealing with the unfinished aspects of a
language get a LOT more responses than those explaining grammar/vocab. alre=
ady
designed and done.  For instance, my last (I think) post, about Gender, had
some lines about "multiple realities" which I thought some people would fin=
d
interesting enough to carry on a discussion about, but there were no respon=
ses
-- conlangers on this list seem to be more interested in the *possible* tha=
n
the actual, which I think is fine; it means this is a mailing list about
*constructing* languages rather than about *already constructed* languages.
I disagree, though, that the list is only interested in very new conlangs;
my Danov=EBn (Arov=EBn, as I like to call the spoken form now) has about fi=
ve
years under its belt as a grammar, and as a naming-language about eighteen,
and yet as long as there are features not completely finished I can post ab=
out
them and get all kinds of helpful responses.  Maybe this could be different=
,
maybe the list could turn into more of a medium for discussing the pros and
cons of this or that completed conlang, in which case languages like Quenya
or Lojban or Esperanto (Gott verhuete...) would get more time in the spotli=
ght
than all these brand new ones -- but I get the feeling that most people her=
e
would not want this, not because they have any negative feelings towards
mature conlangs, but only because they offer no possibility for further
development; it's the "constructing languages" mailing list ;-)

> Lojban still has issues that I think belong in a place like CONLANG, issu=
es=20
that
> I would like to see discussed (not just in terms of Lojban).  These are
> essentially questions of how one turns a conlang "design" or "project" in=
to a
> real conlang - a language that some people use for some of the purposes o=
f
> language.
>=20
> While respecting those whose interest in conlangs is artistic, per the se=
cret
> vise, I have posted before that I don't think that a language design or=
=20
project
> is really a language.  A work of art maybe, but so much of what "is" a=20
language
> seems missing.  I have scorned, often not too diplomatically, languages t=
hat
> are created in a couple of months by a single individual as not really be=
ing
> languages.  I am not particularly inclined to withdraw those arguments, b=
ut I
> have come to understand that people interested in that sort of thing do n=
ot
> want to hera that sort of criticism %^).

And where, would you say, are new conlangers to discuss their projects?  I'=
m
not seriously thinking of ever creating another complete language other tha=
n
Danov=EBn/Arov=EBn, but if I were, Conlang would be the ideal list to be on=
 while
doing so.  I may eventually be designing a skeletal "language" for fictiona=
l
purposes (the one I was thinking of calling Cirya, Danov=EBn's polar opposi=
te,
an absolutely intuitive language, incomprehensible to an A.I.; it is suppos=
edly
the humanists' counterpoint to the logical Aruv=EBn), and I'll look forewar=
d to
being able to discuss it on Conlang if/when I do.
So it happens that I have a good, mature conlang -- well, I'm glad of that =
and
I like my language very much, but I'm not going to scorn someone else's bud=
ding
language because it is incomplete; I'm also a physics student and work as a=
n
artist, but you wouldn't catch me throwing a contemptuous grin at anyone I =
see
in the library checking out a book about elementary mechanics or drawing an=
d
sketching; the way I see it it would be better to *encourage* rather than s=
corn
them for their efforts.  Just where did Loglan and Lojban start?  They were
once an infant languages as well, as all conlangs have been at some time.  =
No,
I'm sure there are very few people on this list interested in reading that =
sort
of "criticism" @%^]>

>[snipped; basically you say that promotional activity for conlangs such as
Lojban have become unwelcome on Conlang and express the wish to encourage
the re-emergence of such discussions]

I'm all for it; my conlang was painstakingly built to be, from one
particular point of view, the "perfect" language for interpersonal
communication -- now that it is more or less "finished" it lacks only its
speakership.  For the most impractical of reasons I am at this point endeav=
oring
to assemble and train a small group of future Arov=EBn speakers... the Aro=
=EBl
will be!  Conlang might be a good place to go about doing so, but it depend=
s
on whether the majority of list members want to tolerate such postings --
conlang promotion of any kind borders on the sort of material usually reser=
ved
for the Auxlang list.  True, your language isn't really appropriate for Aux=
lang
either, so I see your dilemma -- one possible solution might be to create a=
 new
header prefix for the Conlang list so those who want to filter out such thr=
eads
can do so.  Maybe you could even have your own prefix -- call it LOJBAN :-)

Josh Shinavier


        _/_/      _/_/  _/_/_/_/   Joshua Shinavier            =20
         _/        _/  _/         Loorenstrasse 74, Zimmer B321=20
        _/        _/  _/_/_/_/   CH-8053 Z=FCrich              =20
 _/    _/  _/    _/        _/   Switzerland                 =20
_/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/
http://members.tripod.com/~Paradox5/Danoven/danoven.html (to be updated bef=
ore
the end of the week; I just have a few more chapters to edit and a drawing
to finish before I upload the entire new D. site)

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