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AUXLANG  November 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG November 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: What IAL to learn?

From:

Michael Farris <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:56:42 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (141 lines)

emerson alcott wrote:
 
> Michael Farris epenom:
>
> >No seriously, the two languages despite the changes are more or less
> >mutually intelligible (in written form). Most people interested in IAL's
> >prefer Ido to Esperanto, but Idists' marketing of their language brings new
> >meaning to words like "pathetic" and "misguided".
>
> Where the hell do you get 'most people... prefer Ido to Esperanto'?!  Have
> you done a poll to determine this?  Please don't generalize without proof.
> (Actually, from a numbers' perspective only, I'd say the opposite was true:
> more people prefer Esperanto over Ido.)
 
Read my answer carefully. I didn't write "most people", I wrote "most people
interested in IAL's". This is my perception. Let me explain. I put IALers into
three categories.
 
The first category isn't interested in IAL's in general, they're interested in
one specific IAL. On this list, I'd say Don for example is interested in Eo and
has very little positive to say about any other IAL, Bob is into Li Lingue but
has very little positive to say about any other IAL.
The second group on the other hand, are interested in different IAL's, and
strongly prefer one over another, for example Ken prefers Eo, Kjell prefers Ia,
but they don't automatically dump all over any other IAL and on occasion say
positive things about them.
The third category is those who are interested in the phenomenon and will go with
anything that works. (we won't mention those who flit from IAL to IAL, possibly a
fourth category).
Simply put, most people from the second and third groups (my perception - and I
did write that I was being completely subjective) prefer Ido to Eo. This may be
one of Ido's problems, it's more tailored to IAL enthusists than to the general
public.
 
In other words, I was using sloppy shorthand for "Most people interested in IAL's
in general, and not attached to any specific IAL and who have looked at both,
prefer Ido to Esperanto" I think I'm on fairly firm ground with that.
 
 
> >Poetic qualities? well, lots of folks write poetry in Esperanto and an
> >Esperanto poet was recently nominated for the Nobel prize in Literature. But
> >frankly speaking, most Eo poetry I've seen is doggerel. But this is probably
> >more indicative of the taste of Eists than a statement on the expressive
> >powers of the language. (and no other IAL is even in the race here).
>
> 'Doggerel' is a mere opinion.
 
Certainly.
 
 
> I think that much of the Esperanto poetry is not only beautiful in what it says
> (with ideas that can't be clearly
> expressed in English), but also in how it sounds.  As Dubin once said
> "Esperanto lends itself to poetry".
 
I did say I was being subjective. Some people obviously enjoy Eo poetry. I'm not
one of them (based on the samples I've seen). For the record, I'm sort of neutral
about poetry in general. I like some, am bored by some. (and I've read poetry in
three natural languages, English, Spanish and Polish, I especially like - Lorca
(in Spanish) and Akhmatova (English translation of Russian). Szymborska is also
rather interesting and very accesible for a Nobel laureate.
 
 
> >Esperanto : Plus side -  The most used. So, you'll have more opportunities
> >to speak/read/write/hear Eo than any other IAL going.
> >Down side - Not as easy as it's advertised to be.
>
> Personally, what do you see as its most difficult parts?  I'd honestly like
> to hear what you think is difficult.  When learning Esperanto, I had no
> difficulty whatsoever.  I don't see how any English-speaker could.
 
Well, I'm a linguist, and compared to Hungarian, I do find it easy. But I'm going
by what I've heard. If no English-speaker could have any difficulty whatsoever,
then how would you explain 'eternaj komencantoj'? (Unless they're all non-English
speaking).
 
> >Also, Eists are grammar
> >queens with little tolerance for deviation from the prescribed rules of the
> >language.
>
> Isn't it natural to dislike stupid mistakes?  With a language with only 16
> rules, why should anyone be allowed to make mistakes?
 
Be allowed? What are you going to do? Take them out and shoot them? I seem to
remember reading that Asians don't find Eo easy (unless they already speak a
Western language) and Eists have never really denied that.
 
>  People who speak
> English would have 'little tolerance' toward someone who said "me has saw
> dog street in," and English has many  more rules than Esperanto's 16.
 
You and I obviously live in different universes.Listen carefully, the first point
of an IAL is to allow communication. Say you're walking down a street and see a
burning house. A terrified man runs up to and says "Mia Dio! Mi havi tri filo en
tiu domo!" what are you going to do? Say "Ne, vi havas tri filojn en tiu domo."?
or are you going to try to help?
My personal communication philosophy is to pay more attention to content than to
form. Eists pay (law mi) too much attention to form and not enough to content. Eo
will only ever be a hobia lingvo until they get over that.
 
> >The favorite topic of much discourse in Esperanto
> >_is_ Esperanto.
>
> This may be true, yet I'd say it was 50/50.  Perhaps if we weren't on the
> defense so often, due to ridiculous and continuous attacks, we would stop it.
 
Well, in any cross-linguistic situation, language itself will be a frequent topic
of conversaion, but 50% is still a lot. Also, I was under the impression that
folks in Esperantujo don't pay any attention to reformuloj. Am I wrong?
 
> >Ido : Plus side - Most IALers like it better than Eo.
>
> Again, where's the poll?  Let's do some deductive reasoning: I hope you'll
> admit that all Esperantists like Esperanto.  There's no one who says "I hate
> Esperanto, but some people forced me to learn it, use it, and promote it.
> Woe is me!"
 
First, according to Don (who should know) about 95 % of all Eists are not
interested in IAL issues at all. Second the great majority of the remaining 5%
are interested in Eo and not other IAL's.
 
> So, given that, we now have 2 million 'Esperanto-likers.'  And,
> by similar reasoni(edit)t 'Most IALers like it
> (Ido) better than Eo.'
 
(see above)Where would you put me? Believe it or not, I _like_ Esperanto. I can
read it fairly easily, (don't get enough practice in speaking and writing) and I
would be deliriously happy if it became widely used outside of Esperantujo. But I
certainly don't take every bit of the fundamento to be the absolute last word in
language planning.
 
Finally, don't I get any credit for the nice things I was saying about Eo? The
new lister asked a question about which IAL to learn. Instead of just telling him
"Learn X!"  I tried to give a rundown on different aspects of several different
IAL's. Maybe my information isn't unbiased (I never said it was, in fact I
clearly wrote that it was completely biased) and maybe some of my info is wrong
(happens to all of us) but I can't think of any IAL that is undiluted positives.
 
Amikel,
MikeFarris

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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 1
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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
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October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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