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AUXLANG  November 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG November 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Answer to Andrew & Response to Kjell

From:

Robin Turner <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:19:01 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (86 lines)

la tcalz. cusku di'e
 
> Robin Turner wrote:
>
> > What makes Lojban difficult is its unfamiliarity - there are hardly any words
> > which are exatcly the same as a word in a natlang (though nearly all of them bear
> > some resemblance) and the grammar is like nothing else on earth (again with the
> > possible exception of Chinese).
>
> I don't think it is the vocabulary, and the grammar does
> not resemble Chinese as far as I can see.
 
Well, Chinese was a pretty long shot, I admit.  What struck me as similar was the use
of particles, optional tense marking and maybe (this is disputable) a kind of
bracketing (e.g. "yinwei .... suoyi", though most Lojbanists who know Chinese seem to
disagree on this one).
 
> The difficulty
> is the argument structure of the verb; there isn't any.
> Instead there is a separately defined idiom for every
> predicate. Not even English verbs are quite that bad at
> being idiomatic instead of following regular patterns.
>
 
I got this impression when I first looked at Lojban, and it still gives me cause for
concern occasionally.  However, once you start using the language, the problem pretty
much vanishes, because 90% of the time you don't need to know the place-structure.  The
introductory materials give an overly daunting impression by using "klama" (come/go) as
an example, which is one of the few 5-place functions, and one where confusing the
places can radically alter the meaning (since you can mix up the origin, destination
and route of the journey).  However, the vast majority of words are not like this -
place structures are fairly easy to guess.  For example, if you know that "cutci" is
shoe, "dunda" is give and the article "la" precedes a name, it's pretty easy to work
out
 
mi dunda le cutci la mayk.faris
 
without ever having heard the place structure of "dunda".
 
>
> As an example, the simple verb "to walk"; Lojban has:
>
> cadzu [ dzu ] walk
>      x1 walks/strides/paces on surface x2 using limbs x3
>      (cf. stapa, bajra, klama, litru)
>
> So, "I walk road hand"?? I fail to see the logic in this.
> (Despite having worked in unix for 20 years, where
> "grep pattern file" makes sense.)
 
OK, "cadzu" confused me as well, because I can't see what you would normally walk on
other than legs - sometimes the designers went over the top trying to include all
possible arguments of a function.  After the "baseline" period (during which the
language is frozen) finishes, I can imagine the less useful places getting dropped, so
if you still want to say that you're walking on your hands you can say:
 
mi cadzu sepi'o le xance
I   walk  with-tool hand
 
> A real language
> arranges verbs into relatively few categories of
> argument structure, transitive/intransitive/etc.,
> and marks arguments using some kind of case system.
 
Real languages don't arrange verbs into categories, grammarians try to work out
categories to classify the chaos of implied place structures, which is why attempts to
explain the behaviour of verbs using "Aktionsarten", IMNSHO, tend be unimpressive.
"Some kind of case system" can unfortunately mean just about anything, and the problem
with marking for case is that you then have to explain to bemused learners why in
English you get angry _at_ or _with_ someone, while in Turkish you get angry _to_
them.  In Lojban you just angry someone.  In some ways Lojban is quite pidginesque.
 
There are some general principles for place structure in Lojban.  For example, in verbs
of motion, the destination always comes before the origin, evaluative words have the
final place as "by standard x", when there are equivalents of nominative, accusative,
dative and ablative the usually occur in that order, and so on.
 
 
> Sorry to be negative, but Lojban isn't a realistic option.
>
 
Well, the verdict's still not in on that one.   To be Lojbanical about it, realistic by
what standard? ;-)
 
co'o mi'e robin.

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