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AUXLANG  November 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG November 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Answer to Andrew & Response to Kjell

From:

"Robert J. Petry" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:00:52 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (141 lines)

Kjell Rehnstrom wrote:
 
> [kut]
>
> Take Occidental _scrir_ = to write. Writing can be translated as _scrition_
> and a _writer_ is, according to the texts that Bob has sent to this list
> _scritor_. But the word _inscription_ is the same in Occidental.
 
> There is a subtle difference between to write and to inscribe in Occidental.
 
But, scri is the root for both.
 
 
>
> Noun:
> scription               scrition but _inscription
 
??
 
> [kut]
>
> This is one of the instants where de Wahl wanted to make it easy. We will
> probably never know why he  has not made the same with _to see_ _vider_.
> Had he liked to follow the modern languages he might as well have
> simplified _vider_ to _vir_.
 
This would conflict with vir-ar, to veer
 
> As for word selection I prefer the Interlingua method but I am somewhat
> dubious as for _blau_ meaning _blue_. This is perhaps one of the examples
> of _prototypic fundamentalism_ in Interlingua. I'd guess Occidental has
> _blu_ here. But this is a minor complaint. In the most cases the staff of
> the IALA did a thorough work.
 
blu = blue
 
>
>
> Another was clearly that the Occidentalists that were still active went
> over to Interlingua. Differently from Bob I think this was because the
> Occidentalists saw Interlingua as a better language. What was better
> language and what was more extrovert organisation at the Interlingua side,
> is a thing I cannot pinpoint. It certainly was a combination of both.
 
It was a combination of things. One of them, other than Ric B's little spat, etc
was the fact that de Wahl and other Occidentalists always believed the final
language would be either Occidental or a further development of the naturalistic
idea. When Ila came out, it was promoted as that kind of advancement, and had the
backing, it appeared at the time, to be that replacement. As time has shown, it was
not the replacement it was thought to be, and the backing stopped, and Ila began a
very rocky road for a time. They were never against an improvement on, or beyond
Occidental as certain other lins seem to be. So, I see no reason at the time, that
the occidentalists should not have gone to Ila. Today, after seeing the Ila in
actual use, and seeing how Occ was used. I still go for Occ any day over Ila. On
top of that, there are still some very neat and good proposals by the
Occidentalists themselves for improving Occidenta which I have never brought up
here or anywhere yet. And, if the temporary diversion created by Ila coming on the
scene had not occured to stop the already in discussion changes to Occ. then it
would be even harder today to argue against Occ.
 
And, after enough people begin using Occ again, eventually we can discuss, compare,
and add or delete those changes to Occidental. I think many of you might be
surprised at the advancements that were going to be made to Li Lingue itself. But,
I am personally not willing on my own to incorporate those changes without the
involvement of other commited folks to help make the proper decisions.
 
All along, Occidental has made changes based on the preferences of the speakers,
and suggestions of the critics, and had constantly improved. For instance, some
folks, even to this day, argue over things Occidental had already changed, yet,
these folks think Occ. still uses the items they argue against.
 
Now, if one were to actually compare themselves the inner workings of word
formation, etc. I think it would be found that Occ. overall is easier for the
majority to read. For the Spanish, Portuguese, Italian reader, perhaps Ila seems
easier. But, when one factors in French, English, German, Rumanian, Swedish,
Russian, and some others, a greater overall number will understand Occ. somewhat
easier.
 
Surveys were done to find out some things about "at sight" comprehension. Since no
at sight language yet has 100% at sight readability. Not even your native language,
unless you happen to be a walking dictionary, and know every word in your language
plus every word that will be developed.
 
In English, it was found that a 78% at sight readability was easily achieved.
That's quite high. In Spanish, Portuguese, etc. it is just as high, and higher.
 
> At the time when Interlingua was beginning in Sweden Occidental was
> disappearing. The first elected  secretary of the Swedish Interlingua
> Society was a former Occidentalist, and so was a retired teacher I meat
> here in Uppsala. He told me that he much preferred Interlingua.
 
One can never argue against personal preference. I prefer Spanish over Interlingua,
as some others have expressed. That does not do away with the fact that in its
circles Ila works. I just believe that Occ can reach across a couple or more
language barriers easier than Ila. If however, we were to present Ila and Occ
together to the South Americans, for instance, I have no doubt they would go for
Ila. And, presented in other areas together, Occ would be the one.
 
> I bet that if Occidental becomes bigger it will reherse its history. On the
> other hand I think one could take the best from Occidental into interlingua
> - as has been done, silently and without too much fuss - and in a future it
> can be more. As long as one keeps to a correct method of word selection it
> is no problem.
 
If Occ was that bad, why take so much of it into Ila? Of course, for every
question, someone will have a reply, so progress usually comes to a standstill.
But, at least Kjell recognizes the benefits that Occ does offer, even though he
prefers Ila. If, on the other hand, Occ did not exist, and I had not run across it,
I was beginning to go for Ila. Occ stopped me cold in going that route. In fact,
before I found Occ I was really interested in Mondial over even Ila. I'm glad I
found the "treasure" I found. Especially the fact that within that treasure I have
found already discussed 99% of the "modern" arguments against it. And, the answers
there outweigh the arguments against.
 
> I hope this effort in describing the differences between Occidental and
> Interlingua can be of help. I have tried to see the languages as
> objectively as possible, stressing both the good and the bad parts as well
> as I have been able to.
 
It's certainly better by a lot than some things that have been presented.!!!
 
> >>If the Esperanto movement is the Elephant the Interlingua ditto is the
> >>mosquito,
 
"esset" li mosquito, por que Occ es nu ci tamen.
 
> but I have for many years now been using Interlingua as an
> >>alternative to English. There is an astounding lot of people who understand
> >>Interlingua. The important thing is that the information one has to give is
> >>of interest to the listener or reader.
> >
> >But don't forget the astounding number of people who _can't_ understand
> >Interlingua, kiel mi.
>
> Tio estas surpriziga. Io pote inseniar te interlingua si tu vole.
 
Ma, pensa de li popules qui lee Ila e Occ. Milliones!
 
Amico,
Bob, x+

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