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AUXLANG  November 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG November 1998, Week 2

Subject:

scri in occ, was Answer to Andrew & Response to Kjell

From:

Kjell Rehnstrom <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:19:10 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (332 lines)

>Kjell Rehnstrom wrote:
>
>> [kut]
>>
>> Take Occidental _scrir_ =3D to write. Writing can be translated as _scrit=
ion_
>> and a _writer_ is, according to the texts that Bob has sent to this list
>> _scritor_. But the word _inscription_ is the same in Occidental.
>
>> There is a subtle difference between to write and to inscribe in Occident=
al.
>
>But, scri is the root for both.
 
My point is that _scribe_ IS the root in many languages. In Swedish we have
for instance _transkribera_ for English _transcribe_. It is Interlingua
using this root as an independent word that is the big leep forward, as I
see it. When studying Interlingua you see the system. I see this as one of
the big assets of Interlingua that Occidental doesn't have to the same
degree. If "naturality" is a point in itself one might argue that
Occidental as well as English and Swedish have too roots for the notion
writing: _write and _scribe_, _skriva_ and _skrib_ whereas Interlingua has
one _scrib-_ which is not bad for an international language. If you are a
speaker of a language where the western vocabulary is not well known it may
be an plus to be able to learn it by studying Interlingua. More so than
Occidental in my view.
 
Bob:
>blu =3D blue
>
Kjell R:
Undoubtedly Occidental has got a point there.
>>
>> Another was clearly that the Occidentalists that were still active went
>> over to Interlingua. Differently from Bob I think this was because the
>> Occidentalists saw Interlingua as a better language. What was better
>> language and what was more extrovert organisation at the Interlingua side=
,
>> is a thing I cannot pinpoint. It certainly was a combination of both.
> Bob P:
>It was a combination of things. One of them, other than Ric B's little
>spat, etc
>was the fact that de Wahl and other Occidentalists always believed the fina=
l
>language would be either Occidental or a further development of the
>naturalistic
>idea. When Ila came out, it was promoted as that kind of advancement, and
>had the
>backing, it appeared at the time, to be that replacement. As time has
>shown, it was
>not the replacement it was thought to be, and the backing stopped, and Ila
>began a
>very rocky road for a time.
 
Kjell R: As international auxiliary language in some sense are global
phenomena - if we don't overstress the globality - then it does happen that
the point of gravitation is moved from one place to another. I would say
that this was what happened with Interlingua. It moved its gravitational
center over to Europe and began step by step to go forward. At the same
time Occidental was pronounced dead by Esperantists. As one Esperantist
told me in a radio program: The best language there ever was, was
Occidental, but it is stone dead. Surprizingly enough the Esperantists had
not went out of their way to support this very best language! ;-)
 
Bob P.
They were never against an improvement on, or beyond
>Occidental as certain other lins seem to be. So, I see no reason at the
>time, that
>the occidentalists should not have gone to Ila.
 
> Today, after seeing the Ila in
>actual use, and seeing how Occ was used. I still go for Occ any day over
>Ila. On
>top of that, there are still some very neat and good proposals by the
>Occidentalists themselves for improving Occidenta which I have never
>brought up
>here or anywhere yet. And, if the temporary diversion created by Ila
>coming on the
>scene had not occured to stop the already in discussion changes to Occ.
>then it
>would be even harder today to argue against Occ.
>
>And, after enough people begin using Occ again, eventually we can discuss,
>compare,
>and add or delete those changes to Occidental. I think many of you might be
>surprised at the advancements that were going to be made to Li Lingue
>itself. But,
>I am personally not willing on my own to incorporate those changes without =
the
>involvement of other commited folks to help make the proper decisions.
 
Kjell R: The very day that I will see, black on white that one form of the
interantional language is easier for communication purposes than
Interlingua, I will not hesitate to use it, if it is in my ability to do
so. Because I am deeply convinced that the only way that you can spread an
international language is to construct it in such a way that as many people
as possible can understand it as well as possible.
>
It doesn't hurt to stress this one strongly enough: I am interested in an
international auxiliary language to take me beyond the borders of my native
Swedish and school Swenglish. I NEED an international language and I am
prepared to do quite a lot of work to master the language that gives me the
best communication efficience.
 
Bob P.
>All along, Occidental has made changes based on the preferences of the
>speakers,
>and suggestions of the critics, and had constantly improved. For instance,
>some
>folks, even to this day, argue over things Occidental had already changed,
>yet,
>these folks think Occ. still uses the items they argue against.
 
Kjell R:
Could you give me a concrete example. This is to abstract for me.
 
Bob P:
>Now, if one were to actually compare themselves the inner workings of word
>formation, etc. I think it would be found that Occ. overall is easier for t=
he
>majority to read. For the Spanish, Portuguese, Italian reader, perhaps Ila
>seems
>easier. But, when one factors in French, English, German, Rumanian, Swedish=
,
>Russian, and some others, a greater overall number will understand Occ.
>somewhat
>easier.
 
Kjell R:
I found Interlingua and Occidental about the same difficult or easy to
read. On the other hand the adequate derivation system in Interlingua
showed me a lot of linguistic context that I had never thought of. I'm
looking forward to seeing my Interlingua grammar on the net, where I am
going to show how it all sticks together, as far as European languages go.
 
Bob P:
>Surveys were done to find out some things about "at sight" comprehension.
>Since no
>at sight language yet has 100% at sight readability. Not even your native
>language,
>unless you happen to be a walking dictionary, and know every word in your
>language
>plus every word that will be developed.
 
>In English, it was found that a 78% at sight readability was easily achieve=
d.
>That's quite high. In Spanish, Portuguese, etc. it is just as high, and
>higher.
 
Kjell R:
If you go down on a micro level you will se something else than the object
studied.
 
An educated Rumanian doesn't need much education to be able to read
Interlingua. If the person can read occidental easier I don't know, but I
doubt it.
 
Now, I know and have known at least 10 Swedes who knew Occidental and can
speak Interlingua, and they prefer Interlingua. That is what interests me.
I beleive what I see, not that someone sais _survey_.
 
>> At the time when Interlingua was beginning in Sweden Occidental was
>> disappearing. The first elected  secretary of the Swedish Interlingua
>> Society was a former Occidentalist, and so was a retired teacher I meat
>> here in Uppsala. He told me that he much preferred Interlingua.
>
>One can never argue against personal preference. I prefer Spanish over
>Interlingua,
>as some others have expressed. That does not do away with the fact that in =
its
>circles Ila works. I just believe that Occ can reach across a couple or mor=
e
>language barriers easier than Ila. If however, we were to present Ila and O=
cc
>together to the South Americans, for instance, I have no doubt they would
>go for
>Ila. And, presented in other areas together, Occ would be the one.
 
Kjell:
What does that mean? Does it mean that you can speak and write Spanish
better than Interlingua - or perhaps better than Occidental? Or does it
mean that you find Spanish more beautiful?
 
All languages that work for you are beautiful.
 
>> I bet that if Occidental becomes bigger it will reherse its history. On t=
he
>> other hand I think one could take the best from Occidental into interling=
ua
>> - as has been done, silently and without too much fuss - and in a future =
it
>> can be more. As long as one keeps to a correct method of word selection i=
t
>> is no problem.
 
Bob P:
>If Occ was that bad, why take so much of it into Ila? Of course, for every
>question, someone will have a reply, so progress usually comes to a
>standstill.
 
Kjell: Occidental was not bad. And is not bad. Note that the IED had listed
quite a lot of Occidental material as they saw it having its rightful place
in the international vocabulary, and when - as I see it - the Occidental
speakers went over to Interlingua they tried to be as "Interlinguic" as
possible but they it was the little words that were in the dictionary but
not used by Gode and some others, that they took into everyday interlingua.
The words _ma_ and _ci_ are some examples I have quoted before.
 
Bob P:
>But, at least Kjell recognizes the benefits that Occ does offer, even
>though he
>prefers Ila. If, on the other hand, Occ did not exist, and I had not run
>across it,
>I was beginning to go for Ila. Occ stopped me cold in going that route. In
>fact,
>before I found Occ I was really interested in Mondial over even Ila. I'm
>glad I
>found the "treasure" I found. Especially the fact that within that
>treasure I have
>found already discussed 99% of the "modern" arguments against it. And, the
>answers
>there outweigh the arguments against.
 
Kjell R: As I see it you did not need neither Occidental nor Interlingua so
you did not have any psychological whip to try to get the best. Having a
world language to your full disposal you were not hungry enough, as I see
it. For me the options were 1. Go on struggling with that impossible
Esperanto that only the initiated understand. 2. Try Occidental - which did
not have a working movement in Sweden when I might have joined it. 3. Jump
on the Interlingua train and learn a language that I saw - and I tested
people with Interlingua texts - that people could understand. I saw the
educational value in Interlingua which Occidental doesn't have, honestly
speaking. 4. Leave the whole matter and struggle on with English, the
spelling of which I would never master, always having an accent in and
haveing a louse hearing comprehension of. + being some kind of a B
Englishman or a B American, instead of being an A Kjell Rehnstr=F6m. Having
the solid ground of Interlingua to jump back to, I could always maintain:
Well if my English doesn't suite you, why not switch to Interlingua, so
that we can have the same degree of sweatting in our communication.
 
The use of foreign language is a give-and -take business. Sometimes I am
the one that _knows all_ in other instants _you_ are the teacher. We can
take both positions in real life. But I am working in favour of Interlingua
according to my modest possibilities as I think it is dangerous if we have
English as the sole international langugae, as we will be taking all the
patterns from the US, often uncritically at the same time as we will be
reduced to a huge host of B-users of English. The lit scene is the US and
the rest of the world has a bilateral telephone line to it. The
communication uccurs via the US. Good for them, perhaps, bad for all the
others.
 
Using Interlingua I want broadened perspectives and the participation of
all peoples interested.
 
When our newsmedia do reporting on international issues the journalists
speak to people who know English, and it occurs very seldom that they talk
to someone more initiated throug an interpreter if there is an English
speaker at hand. That's one of the reasons in favour of interlingua.
 
To this date. Interlingua is a viable alternative. What happens to morrow I
don't know and choose not to speculate about.
 
>> I hope this effort in describing the differences between Occidental and
>> Interlingua can be of help. I have tried to see the languages as
>> objectively as possible, stressing both the good and the bad parts as wel=
l
>> as I have been able to.
 
Bob P:
>It's certainly better by a lot than some things that have been presented.!!=
!
>
Kjell R:
>> >>If the Esperanto movement is the Elephant the Interlingua ditto is the
>> >>mosquito,
>
>"esset" li mosquito, por que Occ es nu ci tamen.
 
Kjell R:
In iste caso il ha duo moschitos.
 
>> but I have for many years now been using Interlingua as an
>> >>alternative to English. There is an astounding lot of people who
>>understand
>> >>Interlingua. The important thing is that the information one has to
>>give is
>> >>of interest to the listener or reader.
 
>> > Emerson A:
>> >But don't forget the astounding number of people who _can't_ understand
>> >Interlingua, kiel mi.
 
Kjell R:
>> Tio estas surpriziga. Io pote inseniar te interlingua si tu vole.
Mi povas instrui al vi interlinguan, se vi volas.
 
Bob P:
>Ma, pensa de li popules qui lee Ila e Occ. Milliones!
>
Kjell R.
Strange as it may seam, Emerson prefers to think about the millions who
cannot read Interlingua instead of trying to learn it. But again: he
doesn't need interlingua in any sense. He has a full command of English.
Therefore it is no loss to him to use Esperanto. Illustrated by this little
example:
 
Swedish:
Ett internationellt spr=E5k =E4r naturligtvis till f=F6r att hj=E4lpa oss=
 att n=E5 ut
=F6ver de gr=E4nser som v=E5ra nationalspr=E5k skapar. Ett ganska opraktiskt=
 s=E4tt
att g=F6ra det p=E5 =E4r esperanto.
 
Esperanto:
La tasko de internacia lingvo kompreneble estas helpi al ni atingi trans
tiujn limojn, kiujn niaj naciaj lingvoj kreas. Sufiche nepraktika maniero
fari tion estas uzi esperanton.
 
Interlingua:
Un lingua international naturalmente existe pro auxiliar nos in attinger
trans le limites le quales nostre linguas national crea. Un maniera
sufficientemente inpractic es usar esperanto.
 
 
 
 
[log in to unmask]
Kjell Rehnstroem
Vaenortsgatan 87
S-752 64  UPPSALA
Svedia - Sweden

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August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
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July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
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June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
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May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
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March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
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February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
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October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
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September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
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July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
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February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
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January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 3
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April 2005, Week 1
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March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
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July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
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June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
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June 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 1
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June 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
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June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 3
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December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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