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AUXLANG  November 1998, Week 2

AUXLANG November 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: What IAL to learn?

From:

Michael Farris <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:03:30 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (156 lines)

Andrew Templeman wrote:
 
> Dear Auxlang readers,
>
> My name is Andrew Templeman and I am new to this mailing group.
>
> I am a bit of a newbie to this community and to auxilery languages.  I
> have studied a little bit of Esperanto and had a passing novelty
> interest in Klingon.  I never knew there were so many auxilery languages
> up until a few days ago.  Can someone please explain:
>
> What's the deal with Esperanto and Ido?
 
You don't wanna know (unless you enjoy long convoluted operatic tales of
conspiracy and rancor.
hmmm that's not enough? Okay here's the 60 second version.
 
By it's very nature, Esperanto has always inspired would-be editors to
straighten out some its rough edges or substitute some of its weirder
features with more commonly found ones. Around the turn of the century, at a
congress to select an IAL (for what??? no one knows) a small group of people
tried to take over the language and re-mold it in a new form. Some of their
proposed changes had a long history in the Esperanto movement and some had
even been proposed unsuccesfully by Zamenhof himself (founder of Eo). Other
changes seemed to be intended to make the language more like French (IMHO)
and some others were just as weird as anything in original
Esperanto(principle of reversibility).  The end-result was a nasty split n
the Esperanto movement with plenty of hard feelings on both sides. Most
stayed with the original un-changed Esperanto while a smaller group (20%?)
tried to chart new waters with their newly christened Ido (there's even some
contoversy about what that name means, trust me, you don't want to know).
Ido had some early success, but some prominent promoters died around the
time of WWI or directly after and the movement never recovered.
 
 
> Which should I learn?
 
Learn Ido and speak it to Esperantists, they'll understand, but they'll hate
you forever.
 
No seriously, the two languages despite the changes are more or less
mutually intelligible (in written form). Most people interested in IAL's
prefer Ido to Esperanto, but Idists' marketing of their language brings new
meaning to words like "pathetic" and "misguided".
 
There are of course many more speakers of Esperanto than Ido (best estimates
say somewhere between one and two million people speak Eo, Ido is nowhere
near that, a few hundred to a few thousand speakers and I'm being generous).
 
But (and it's a big but) according to a prominent Eist (Esperantist),
probably about 95% of those who speak esperanto are not at all interested in
the IAL issue one way or the other.
Mostly, Esperanto is a hobia lingvo (hobby language) used to establish
informal social contacts with people from around the world. There are Esits
who are interested in promoting the language as an IAL but they work _very_
slowly and tend to favor vague talk about safe-guarding linguistic rights as
human rights (certainly a laudable effort)  instead of setting any type of
concrete agenda or setting any type of concrete goals. The lingua-political
stuff I've read from the Esperanto movement gives me the impression that
they're primarily interested in safeguarding the rights of Esperantists as a
linguistic minority. This is necessary since they have been persecuted more
than once. But it's not very global thinking as far as I can see.
 
>
>
> What the hell is Loglan/Lojban?
>
 
Loglan was an attempt to create a language with a completely logical
structure (while still maintaining West European linguistic cultural
categories) Lojban was the result of a split in the Loglan movement.
Currently Lojban has more people interested in it, but I have the feeling
it's only ever mentioned as a potential IAL because no one can figure out
what else to do with it. From what I understand it's more used to create
sample sentences than to communicate with anyone.
 
> My main interest in learning an auxiliery language is mostly for
> fun/hobby, but also to challenge myself and to develop a better
> understanding of language in general.
 
hmmmm IAL's won't do that for you IMHO. Do the first ten lessons in
self-study books for Vietnamese, Turkish and Swahili and you'll learn more
about language in general than 20 years of auxiliary languages.
 
> I want to study a language that has some poetic qualities, yet is
> practical.  I know I may be asking a lot, but if you could provide me
> with some personal objective information on the various languages, I
> would really apprciate it.
 
Poetic qualities? well, lots of folks write poetry in Esperanto and an
Esperanto poet was recently nominated for the Nobel prize in Literature. But
frankly speaking, most Eo poetry I've seen is doggerel. But this is probably
more indicative of the taste of Eists than a statement on the expressive
powers of the language. (and no other IAL is even in the race here).
 
>
>
> Which one should I learn first?
 
Here's my completely subjective appraisal:
 
Esperanto : Plus side -  The most used. So, you'll have more opportunities
to speak/read/write/hear Eo than any other IAL going.
Down side - Not as easy as it's advertised to be. Also, Eists are grammar
queens with little tolerance for deviation from the prescribed rules of the
language. The accented letters cause lots of problems in various media, but
Eists are loathe to admit that this is a problem at all, so don't look for a
solution any time soon. The favorite topic of much discourse in Esperanto
_is_ Esperanto.
 
Ido : Plus side - Most IALers like it better than Eo. Doesn't use accents,
so it's easy to write in any medium.
Down side - Very few speakers and their poor marketing means that probably
won't change in the near future. Many Idists are still obsessed with events
that happened 90 years ago. (when Ido was born).
 
Interlingua :  Plus side - Very easy for those who speak a Romance language.
A bit harder for those who don't. Much of Interlingua can be read "at sight"
with no previous education in the language. After Eo, probably the second
most successful IAL. They actually have a E-mail list where discussing the
language itself is forbidden.
Down side - It's boring. (Okay, that's my personal opinion, but some other
folks have said the same thing.) Assumes the speaker knows/cares about Latin
and is not as easy as some enthusiasts claim. No one's really active in
promoting Interlingua as far as I can tell. Also, created/intended primarily
as a common written scientific vocabulary for Western languages. It is a
little lacking in the zip department and the pronunciation is said to vary
greatly (Interlinguists claim this isn't a problem).
 
Glosa : Plus side - Interesting structure, no inflections, any word can be
used as any part of speech. Greekish instead of Latin-based vocabulary.
Down side - Very few users. The main promoters two people in England have an
unfortunate tendency to say things like the language  "has no grammar". Not
as well worked out as it could be. More interesting as a hobby language than
as an IAL.
 
 
Occidental : (I'll dispense with the plus and minuses here and just say
something about it)  A lot like Interlingua (actually that should be the
other way around since Occidental came first). Strikes me as a bit more
flexible than most IAL's in that the language is built on a  "whatever
works" attitude and speakers have more freedom to deviate from the master
plan than with most IALs. Very few speakers but that could change, since
there is has a very enthusiastic promoter, who is trying to revive the
language (our own Bob Petry). Easy to read (although enthusiasts of some
IAL's like to pretend that they can't understand it).
 
That's my rundown. I haven't mentioned a few languages that don't seem to
have enough of a following to matter. I'd say look at several and see which
you find more interesting. I'd advise you to go to different languages
web-sites and look around, maybe ask questions and see who's more
hospitable.
 
Amikel,
MikeFarris

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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
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December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
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August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
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July 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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