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CONLANG  November 1998, Week 2

CONLANG November 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: NGL:vtense#11

From:

Gerald Koenig <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:03:54 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (287 lines)

>
>On Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:05:24 -0800 (PST), Gerald Koenig
><[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Stephen,
Thanks for the translations! Your fluency is amazing. My comments are
interspersed.

>Here is my translations of the given examples.
>
>General Vocabulary Proposals:
>
>felis N                -       cat
>
>>Ex 1. ROR
>>
>>a. indicative:
>>"If the cat is here, I don't see her."  This leaves open the possibilty
>>that the cat is here somewhere.
>>
>>b. subjunctive:
>>1. "If the cat were here, I would see her". This means that it is
>>contrary to fact, irrealis, that the cat is here.
>>
>>1'. "ROR the cat is here, I don't see her". This is the VTT form.
>
>Ror q felis te ecoigje, mi no te otaw zai'.


        First off I need to correct the error in my post, I may not have
        sent the correction to both lists. 1' shouldn't have a negative
        in it, the "don't" should be deleted.
>
>NOTE: I used the (under the proposed general vocab system provisional)
>{otaw}, see, because I feel the sense of this sentence requires that
>the mode of sensing be explicitly specified. In this sentence, {te} is
>the vector prestent tense morpheme. I'm not certain how it's supposed
>to work, but I elected not to inflect verbs for person and number
>since Nilhnga seems to require the use of its pronoun set, which makes
>the inflections redundant.

On "see" I agree, because "perceive" is so vague as to lose meaning.
Definitely I think we should have the five senses verbed.
The nilenga pronouns do work with tense through contractions and
inflections are redundant. However as a matter of mixing systems, They can be
used alone and the tense shifted to the verb inflection. That would't be
VTT though. Also as a matter of style, the tense can be redundantly
repeated on the verb, if it is a truly matching tense. The pronouns can
also be used with PVS.



{Mi} and {zai'} are Nilhnga pronouns.
>{Zai'} is my proposed accusative form of {za}, "she."

I know I said I liked your diphthongized forms for the accusatives, but
as I went to type them up I realized the list you posted lacked (or at
least my system missed) the final glottal stop (') that is on the above
"zai'"; and that was going to be another sylable or at least a silent
letter h. So after agonizing for some time I came up with more regular
and in some cases shorter forms for the accusatives and also the
dative. They are simply formed by prefixing "i" for the accusatives and
"u" for the datives to the nominative forms. Then the final vowel can
be omitted in many cases to give a one syllable form. In this I am
trying to emulate the evolution of English which went to shorter forms,
such as "us". I want to be clear that I don't think an entire language
should use the shortest words possible. It's the grammar words where I
strive for this because I think it's a natural language tendency.
According to the new paradigm, the accusative of "za" (she) is "iza",
which can be further contracted to "iz". So far I am allowing either
form because I think there may be speech rhythm reasons for it. The
latest forms are posted at the end of this post.

Jerry, what is
>your preference on inflecting verbs for person and number?

My personal preference is to use the plain infinitive. English has only
two inflections left, I think, and coming from the logical language
side as I do I don't see the need for them. But I realize others like
to carry on the tradition of inflections which after all have been
around since the dawn of language, so I think both options should be
kept open. I have an intuition that a mixed system might be best, and I
don't want to close the door on inflections.

>Also note
>that what I am refering to when I say "Nilhnga" is that "flavour" or
>dialect of the NGL language that uses VTT. Referring to the current
>dialects of the language that use the three different proposed verb
>systems with the proposed name for the language proposed by that verb
>system's proposer is not meant to be a reflection of the ultimate
>shape of the language; for example, after the votes are in, the
>language could end up being called Nilhnga while using traditonal
>verbs. However, it is a convenient form to refer to a current de facto
>reality.

I finally see your point here and actually found myself using nilenga in
place of vtt, so let nilenga be the handle for VTT flavor NGL.

>
>Also: is my use of a grave accent on {Nilhnga} correct/acceptible?

That's the way I hear it, with the accent on the next-to-last sylable as
is usual in Spanish and French. I don't know the accent rules for NGl
that well, what is acute or grave, or where it goes,so I can't say.
>
>[...]
>>Ex. 2: INRO
>>
>>1."If lightspeed were 2c, Einstein would turn over in his grave."
>>1' "INRO lightspeed is 2c, [si] Einstein is turning over in his grave."
>
>Inro vonici xui' te 2c-je, si Einstein te su'it pazrur u' has biuna
>hapxui'.
>
>NOTE: {pazrur} is a vector word meaning (I intend it to mean, anyway)
>"turning around." It is used in an almost purely emphatic sense, as
>{su'it} already has most of this sense; the main reason I chose to use
>it was to practice using the vector morpheme.

This usage looks good to me.

{Biuna hapxui'}, "hole
>of sleep," is being used as a euphemism for "grave." {Has} is a part
>of the VTT pronoun declension, which includes a genitive case. Unlike
>in the rest of the NGL language as it currently stands (where one
>marks a noun as _possessed_ rather than possessive and then shows the
>possessor by modifying it with the possessed as with an adjective -
>i.e., {Stephen felise} is "Stephen's cat"), VTT pronouns have, *I
>gather*, I may be mistaken, an actual genitive case. I base this on
>observation of Carlos's composition in Nilhnga. This is the way I'm
>assuming these genitives go (please correct where I am mistaken,
>Jerry, I am making guesses here):

These are the usages I had in mind. Something to think about, and I
would welcome your proposals on this, is a further subdivision of the
simple possesives (genitives), perhaps by modifications on the present
set of genitives, to expand the semantics of the possesives. Like the
english "if" there are perhaps too many senses to the possesives.

>
>GEN:
>
>Mis my           Nis our+addressee
>                 Gus our-addressee
>Vus your         Kus your-p
>Wos his/her/its  Sus  their
>Zas her          Zases ellas (their)
>Has his          Hases ellos (their)
>
>Note that this guess gives {zas} and {has}, "her" and "his" genitive
>the same form as {zas} and {has}, "ellas" and "ellos" nominative. If
>this is a problem, I suggest changing the masculine and feminine
>genitives to {hase} and {zase}. I assumed {-es} endings on the plurals
>already ending in -s.

It's a BIG problem, thanks for finding it. Here's the fix:

GENITIVES:

Zas goes to Zais  (her)
Has goes to Hais  (his)

This adapts your dipthonization idea to a different use. I feel
there's a better chance of these being one sylable. They also maintain
the "s" ending found on the other genitives.

I'm also adopting your ellas, ellos forms:
Zazas goes to zazes
Hasas goes to hases

I just like the sound and feel of them better than mine.
Thanks so very much.

-------------------------------------------
Original post to Carlos:

OK, here are some freshly minted possessive pronouns that are a new
part of VTT. They are very simply formed from the regular VTT pronouns
by adding an s.  The exceptions are "zas" and "has" which repeat the
first consonant to make "zazas" and "hasas".
---------------------------------------

>>2. "If 2+2 were equal to 7, Peano would rise from the dead."
>>2' "INRO 2=2 equals 7, Peano si rise from the dead"
>>si means concurrently.
>
>Inro 2+2 je 7, si Peano te behtibe ` saseci.
>
>NOTE: Literally: "INRO 2+2 is 7, [si] Peano comes back from death."
>
>[...]
>>Ex. 3: ROS
>>[Below is a much edited recent quote from our esteemed moderator, DGD]
>>
>>1. "If Mark were lurking, he would help. If you're lurking, hi Mark!"
>>
>>Taking these two perfectly good English sentences together, it is clear
>>that the sense is that it is not entirely contrary to fact that Mark is
>>lurking, as the surface subjunctive form of the first one suggests.
>>This sentence is rendered with ROS:
>>
>>1'." ROS Mark lurks, he will help"
>
>Ros Mark te :lurk:, ha fu vo. 'If vut :lurk:, he Mark!
>
>NOTE: {vut} is an attempt on my part to use a contraction of vu + te.

That's a perfectly valid contraction, any pronoun combines with any
tensor, and (I believe) yields a unique contraction. Besides using te
as the present tense marker, it can be omitted if desired as it is the
default tense. Also, the vtt tense diagram is identical for present
tense and present progressive tense, so, we could also say "vu em :lurk:"
or "vem :lurk" for you're lurking.  The am,em,um tensors combine by
using the first letter of each nominative pronoun. That's why the
pronouns start with different consonants. Zas and Has are exceptions and
can't be combined.

>Note that for the second sentence I elected to use {'if} + indicative.
>I wasn't sure if I should use the subjunctive here or not.

Hmm.. I don't think it would be correct to put it in the English
style subjunctive as that would suggest that it is contrary to fact or
impossible ("or at best highly unlikely") that Mark is lurking, and
David seems to want to keep open a good possibility that Mark is there.

'if=rof?
>
>[...]
>>Suppose the sense of the example were, that David imagines that Mark
>>will help, but he won't even though he is lurking. Then
>>
>>1'' " ROS Mark lurks, ROR he will help"
>
>Ros Mark te :lurk:, ror haf vo.
>
>>says that Mark may be lurking, and whether he is or not, David only
>>imagines that he will help.
>[...]
>
>Stephen

________________________________

Here are the latest versions of the pronoun cases.  I have incorporated
the changes above mentioned into the genitives. I will be making
loglan/lojban style anaphora for it1, it2, etc, they will require
posessives as well. Your comments would be much appreciated.


NOM:
Mi I             Ni we+addressee
                 Gu we-addressee
Vu you           Ku you(p)
Wo he/she/one    Su  they/ones
Za she           Zas ellas she(p)
Ha he            Has ellos he(p)

ACC:
imi |im          ini |in
                 igu |ig
ivu |iv          iku |ik
iwo |            isu |is
iza |iz          izas|
iha |ih          ihas|

DAT:
umi |            uni |un
                 ugu |ug
uvu |uv          uku |uk
uwo |            usu |us
uza |uz          uzas|
uha |uh          uhas|

GENITIVE:
mis     mine            nis     ours+you
                        gus     ours-you
vus     your            kus     your(p)
wos     his/hers/one's  sus     theirs, ones'
zais    hers            zazes   theirs(f,p)
hais    his             hases   theirs(m,p)



Truly,

Jerry

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September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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