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AUXLANG  November 1998, Week 4

AUXLANG November 1998, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Personal/political preferences (was Re: Un altere exemplo del defamation del effortios de IALA)

From:

Chris Burd <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:43:05 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (142 lines)

At 06:10 PM 24 11 98 +0100, Michael Farris wrote:
>Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
>
>> Occidental chopped -- because of the author's personal  and political
>> preferences -- at least one language group represented in Esperanto. I'm
>> not sure it's good form for an Occidentalist to pick on Interlingua for
>> merely continuing the trend.
>
>Let's talk about this. I read your page on Occi and felt you are a bit
hasty in
>dismissing DeWahl as a Western-Chauvinist cum racist. That is my take on=
 what
>you wrote, and from what others have written I'm not alone. If that's not=
 the
>message you intend to give, you should probably take another look and think
>about re-editing and making yourself a bit clearer.
 
It's worth noting that Andre Martinet, in his none-too-favourable review of
Interlingua in Word in 1951, firmly endorsed the idea of a Romance-biased
IAL. He reasoned that most of the international vocabulary was Romance/
Latin anyway and sticking to Romance for the doubtful cases would (1)
impose a=20
stylistic unity and natural appearance, which experience showed to  be
helpful in securing the acceptance of an IAL; and (2) ensure that at least
one large bloc (moderately educated Romance-speakers) would be able to read
it a first sight (whereas a Germanicised or Slavicised version would be
accessible to only an elite in those language groups, and a mixed version
would be accessible to no-one).
 
>True, DeWahl omitted slavic elements from Occi. Is this proof of his
>anti-slavic bias? I don't think so. If I were creating an IAL I probably
>wouldn't include many slavic elements either. I hope you don't think I'm
>harboring any anit-slavic bias.
>
>The simple truth is that if you're taking Europe as your starting point,=
 the
>words with the biggest international bang for the buck are from (in order,
very
>roughly)
>
>Romance - (more French and Italian than Spanish and Latin, also this
vocabulary
>has much more varied origins than the simple tag 'Romance' might lead you=
 to
>believe, but if you include the Americas, Spanish goes way up, Portuguese
still
>doesn't have much international oomph, a pity since I'm very fond of
Brazilian
>Portuguese - for my money the prettiest language on the planet)
>English
>German
>Greek (Ancient, not modern, and maybe should be above German)
 
I'd suggest that neo-Latin has the widest range of any of these groups,
even French. I recently analysed a Russian newspaper article that I
downloaded off the web and transliterated. No fewer than 43 (11%) of the
399 unique words appeared to contain Western roots:
 
Adekvatno
adres
brigada
deputatov
=E8konomicheskogo
Federacii
fragment
funkcionirovaniju
Genprokuratury
gubernator
gubernatora
gubernatoru
illjuziej
illjuzornost'
impichmenta
iniciativu
intuicija
kandidatov
lider
nacii
moment
neadekvatnyj
normal'nomu
partijnykh
pauzu
politicheskikh
politteatra
pretoriancami
prezidenta
prezidentskim
prezidentskoj
primeru
proceduru
professionalizma
protokola
publicisty
real'noj
sekretar'
standartnaja
strukturu
telekommentatorov
telezhurnalisty
zhurnalistami
 
Of these, 2 seem to be English ("lider" and "impichment"), 2 contain
obviously French roots ("telezhurnalisty" and "zhurnalistami" - the same
root, actually); "standartnaja" may be German; the rest seem general
Romance or neo-Latin (I count the Greek fragments as neo-Latin).
 
>Like it or not (and I don't especially) that's what "international" in a
>European context. If you go to other parts of the world, the major
>international word stock comes from
 
Like it or not, loanwords flow along the general currents of history. If
Stalin had conquered the world, Slavic elements would be more widely
dispersed. This might have been a good thing from the point of view of
linguistic egalitarianism, but *only* from that point of view.
 
>NB When I say 'international' I mean that a word is dispersed from it's
>language of origin into others. Words that stay put don't qualify, no=
 matter
>how many speakers.
>
[much excellent commentary snipped, for now]
>
>Zamenhof used a lot of the basic European international vocabulary and=
 spiced
>it a bit with a little Slavic. This does not make him a global visionary,
>especially since Eists are not especially keen on borrowing words, at
least not
>as far as I've noticed. I don't think the Slavic stock of Eo is bigger now
than
>in Zhoff's day, whereas the Slavic stock (or any ohter stock) has
potential to
>grow in Occidental.
 
Some of Zamenhof's Germanic choices, like "hundo" are fairly international
(due to widespread inheritance, not diffusion), but more often than not he
seems to have been just spicing up the mixture, as you say. "Bedauri" (to
regret), for example, isn't general Germanic; it's specifically
Hochdeutsch. Some of de Wahl's Germanic choices also seem strangely
motivated; "strax" (?immediately} and "flicca" (girl) being notorious
examples.

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