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CONLANG  December 1998, Week 2

CONLANG December 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Assimilation/Dissimilation (was Re: Malat)

From:

"P. M. ARKTAYG" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:53:39 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (97 lines)

PMVA to CLL
Greetings

Didier Willis wrote:

> Since that's my (incorrect :*) derivations which are discussed here,
> I have to answer something....
>
> > > > >  Step 2:  *nemdad > *nembad (dissimilation of /d/ after /m/)
> > >
> > > Assimilation, I think.
> >
> > Right.  Dissimilation refers to the far rarer phenomenon of sounds
> > becoming *less* similar, for example, Latin arbor --> Sp. a'rbol, It.
> > alboro (IIRC), in each case, one of the r's became /l/, an example of
> > _dissimilation_.
>
> Yes, sorry for this erroneous and confusing derivation... The ideas
> were here, but the written stuff was at home...
>
> Another example of dissimilation is fr. "marbre", eng. "marble".
> See also fr. "cardamome", eng. "cardamon".
>
> As a matter of fact, I said it was a dissimilation because of the
> /dVd/ pattern: one of the two /d/ becomes /b/, but it wouldn't have
> happened if they were not so close (and indeed, the sound change
> doesn't occur in 'nemedied'). The /m/ does not play any role here.
>
> The intended derivation, as it should have been described, was:
>
>   *nemedad > *nemebad (dissmilation b/d)
>            > *nembad (accent pitch on the first syllable)
>            > nemvad (spirantization of /b/ after /m/)

Now, that's OK. :-)

> Now I am thinking about it again, and a switch from /d/ to
> /b/ is not very common for a dissimilation. As Nik noted, the
> sounds become _less_ similar. However they usually remain in the
> same category (e.g. m <-> n, or t <-> d) and a dissimilation form
> a dental to a labial is probably not realistic.

In Polish (dialectal):
    _mie,kki_ 'soft' >>> _mie,tki_
    _lekki_ 'light' >>> _letki_
so we have a dissimilation [k] to [t] (velar to dental)

> > > >  Step 3:  *nembad > *nemvad (aspiration of /b/ after a nasal)
> > >
> > > Spirantization?
> >
> > Yes.  Also called frictivization (sp?).  Aspiration means to make
> > aspirated, e.g., /b/ --> /b_h/
>
> You appear to be right. Anyway this is not very relevant here,
> since /b_h/ (IPA 'Beta' character) doesn't exist in "True Almaqerin"
> (but if you have a look at the grammar, /v/ also occurs as the
> lenition of /b/ after the article, and to tell the truth I once
> played with the idea  that it could have been pronounced /b_h/...).

*Here* an aspiration means a difference:
a unaspirated stop : an aspirated stop
ex. Old Greek [p] : [p'], [t] : [t'], [k] : [k']

In Sanskrit, also voiced stops and affricates.

In case of spirantization, it is possible that, *e.g.*:
    [p] > [f] (labiodental)
    [p] > [F] (bilabial)
    [p] > [h] (laryngal (pharyngal?))

> Thanks for pointing these errors. I had no particular knowledge
> of phonetics and phonology before I joined the CONLANG list,
>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> and I learnt most of these things here and looking at other
> conlangers' pages. But I still have many to learn...
>
> Didier.
> -- -

Personally, I don't support a/the fonology.

___
John Cowan wrote:

>> Yes.  Also called frictivization (sp?).  Aspiration means to make
>> aspirated, e.g., /b/ --> /b_h/

> Except when discussing Irish.

"In [Old Irish] ortography a lenition is denoted only for tenues: _p, t,
c_ as _ph, th, ch_ (for this reason, the old name for the lenition - the
aspiration) and [...]"
(translation from Polish; sorry about any roughness)

Is that a point?

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