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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  December 1998, Week 2

CONLANG December 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Malat

From:

Garrett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:07:34 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (104 lines)

I was tired of my isp's mail not working so now i'm using a different POP
server. Here is the message i wanted to send several days ago. This is
about the 4th time i've tried to send it...

Joshua Shinavier wrote:

> > Most nouns are not easily definable.  "Cat" can be defined as _felis
> > domesticus_, a quite precise term.  Water can be defined as H2O, also a
> > precise term, but most cannot be so easily defined.  What is "table",
> > for instance?  How can you define it as opposed to "desk"?  Both have
> > some sort of flat surface, suitable for various tasks, such as writing,
> > but what seperates them?  On the other hand, verbs can usually be
> > defined quite precisely.
>
> I disagree completely.  In Danoven there is no distinction, but those words
> which correspond best to verbs in English are not any simpler than those
that
> correspond to nouns.  Both are defined "minimalistically" based on other
> elements of the language.  Silm ("to drink"), for instance, means simply
> "to ingest a liquid (down the esophagus, of course -- accidental inhalation
> of liquids is not silm!)", and is a concept included in oev (o"v) -- "to
eat"
> -- to ingest, intentionally or unintentionally, regardless of material or
> any other considerations.  You would "oev" soup, not "silm" it, unless it is
> all liquid.  You would "silm" water, poison, or anything else nutritional or
> non, with whatever intention -- these are the pure forms of the words,
> clear and unambiguous; additional information may be added by way of
compounds
> or further explanation.
> The "desk-table" quandary is a typically natlang one; natlangs tend to avoid
> inclusions and hierarchial definitions -- there is a tendency to try to put
> every thing into just one categorical box, rather than taking nouns (since
> these are the natlang "things") to be simply descriptions, approximate or
> precise, of things, rather than mutually exclusive classifications.
> In a sensible language a desk is a table as well; there is no way in which
> the writing purpose of "a desk" compromises the table-ness of "a table".
> Now, if "table" were only an adjective, you wouldn't have even brought up
> this problem -- the seeming "boundary" between "table" and "desk" would
> disappear, and they might both be used to describe a given thing with no
> conflict, just as you might describe the table as both "wooden" and "black"
> without any conflict.
>
> I have yet to meet someone who could explain just what the distinction
between
> nouns, verbs, and adjectives is supposed to represent; the *evolution* of
these
> distinctions is clear, but their *purpose*, if there is one, is shrouded in
> mystery, at least for me.  The distinction is absolutely fundamental to the
> grammar of any language which has it -- IMNSHO there must be some very
simple,
> fundamental and important conceptual distinction it stands in for, otherwise
> it would not seem worth all the problems it causes, would it?
> To me, the PoS seem far more traditional than rational, and this is an
opinion
> based not just on reasoning but also on experience; I fluently speak a
language
> without PoS and have never felt *any* need for them -- from an "outsider's
> viewpoint", PoS distinctions are artificial, sloppy, and entirely
unneccessary
> as well.  Flame at will, it's the simple, verified truth ;-)
>
> Josh Shinavier

Verified? by who? :P

Here is my viewpoint: the concept of the verb is based on energy, and the
noun is
based on matter. An adjective is an elaboration/specification on a noun
(further
describes the matter/object); an adverb is an elaboration/specification on
a verb.
Some verb concepts are quite elaborate, and could sometimes be expressed as a
simpler verb plus some adverbs.

As said before, everything changes in time; that doesn't necessarily mean that
everything is based on a verb. What I say is that the verb is a
change/description
of the change, the noun is the matter that changes.

Then there's the conversion between verb and nouns. A noun can be
classified based
on a verbal concept (a teacher, writer, any other -er's). In that case, the
"energy
form" that character/object most participates in is what it's classified
by. A verb
can be classified based on a nounal concept, such as "doing something like
someone
else", and other examples i can't think of right now.

I think that adjectives are of the noun (matter describing) category, and I
don't
know why they're used as verbs. To "be" something doesn't imply any energy
use at
all.

JJS: you must have SOME type of system that tells how the words relate to each
other...
--
-Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

-Garrett Jones aka Alkaline
Rising Sun - C&C2: Tiberian Sun - http://www.cnc2.com/
Malat - http://www.metro.net/3jones/malat/

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