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CONLANG  December 1998, Week 2

CONLANG December 1998, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Malat

From:

Garrett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:56:01 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

Wow, we're really going off on this subject :)

Mathias M. Lassailly wrote:

> Mathias :
> 1/ I'm no linguist.
> 2/ I never ever judge fellow conlanger's works.
> 3/ Posts have pointed out in the past that my *technical* vocabulary is usually wrong.
> So don't take my post too seriously :-)
> I just referred to *philosophal* conlangers who tried to derive all substantives from verbal roots and reversely. I have my opinion on this but it's only personal and biased. I'm not speaking of Danoven and the like either. Anyway, your roots are neither verbal or nominal but both at the same time. Did your peruse the Nova language ? I'm sure you would like it.

No, i haven't looked at it, but I think I'll go check it out.

> Garrett :
> Well, if there is a certain final state of a certain verb, that doesn't mean the whole process stops right there. The final state itself can cause yet another state after it, and the process could continue forever.
> Mathias :
> So spins the Wheel ;-). You would be fine at Japanese : it works like that most of the time. That's what my TUNU language does too. It's also a prefix *a-* but I call it an *adverb* ;-) What is your syntactic deixis for all these causatives :
> I cut the tree into twigs (patient)

aL ketuc itad ategej (I cut the tree [into twigs] -ej = plural)

> I cut the tree and get tired (agent)

aL ketuc itad (pe) iaL ateted (I cut the tree (causing) me to become tired)(tet would be "to be tired")
the 'pe' word would be a connector word, telling how the two clauses relate. In this instance, the it would mean something like "the previous action has the result of"...

> I cut the tree which makes him happy (clause)

aL ketuc itad (fe) ioL heped (I cut the tree (causing) him to become happy)(hep would be "to be happy")

> I give him money and he gets rich (focus).

aL sfed uman ioL reced (I give the money to him, making him rich)

> Garrett :
> With malat action concepts, the final state is niether stated nor necessarily implied by that action; the final state is expressed seperately.
> Mathias :
> OK. So it's causative, not final. I misunderstood from the example in your Malat page : *to spit* > *to get wet (from spitting)*.

If you go back and look at the sentence, you'll see 'spit' and 'to get wet' are seperate words, one being the action, one being the state.

> Garrett :
> Well, over here, i'm going to make drink and eat the same word. Is there a necessary distinction? The equivalent in english is implied by what is actually consumed (food or liquid).
> Mathias :
> Yes. That's what I say : when you allow one more actor to a verb, then it becomes another concept, hence another verb. Your verb would not be a Malat translation of *to drink* but another concept.

Not an exact translation, but a perfectly usable word in the situation.

> Garrett :
> Also, no matter how logical you try to make your language, it's impossible for everything stated in the language to be logical. The only thing I can successfully make logical is the derivation of words and the grammar of the language.
> Mathias :
> Now, let me sum up : natlang seem sometime *illogical* because theycan't consistently derive a noun of result, beneficiary, etc from every single verb.

Well, to me they seem illogical because most derivations they do have are illogical.

> Garrett :
> Like Rick said in his noun section, it's impossible to logically derive every noun in your language from a verb concept; the derivations can only be slightly related, but, by using these derivations you cut down on roots you need.
> Less vocabulary = less time to learn...
> Mathias :
> I've personally experienced that it's not less vocabulary because the more you derive away from core-case actors, the fuzzier the meaning of the words gets (hi, Josh :-). I'm not sure that *contend*, *intend*, *pretend*, etc are readily guessed from *tend* by English students.

There's an example of some illogical natlang derivation...

> You would say that you derivation are much more *logical*, but that doesn't make any difference to me. I had a lot of trouble with derivations in Japanese and Serbo-Croat heavily using that pattern whereas I found English and Sino-Japanese kanji one-syllable stems 1000 times easier to remember : to carry // to fetch, to cut // to prune, etc. I designed my 1150 basic roots mainly from kanjis for that reason.

Were the derivations illogical or what? why were they hard to remember?

> Garrett :
> I don't like poetry myself...
> Mathias :
> Maybe because poetry thrives on reshuffling and blurring relations and operators between words... Freedom is frightening. We know that ;-) But you are a poet since you made your language. Sorry for you ;-)
> Mathias

Mathias M. Lassailly wrote:

> Garrett wrote :
> snip.

paste.

> For example, if 'k-t' means to cut, and 's-d' means "to be sawdust", 't-d' means a tree, -uc is past tense, and
> -ed is a modifier meaning "to change to":
> aL ketuc itad aseded = I cut the tree into sawdust.
> (i- is patient, a- is a verb that is caused by another action). To say the tree was cut into a board (b-d = to be a board):
> aL ketuc itad abeded = I cut the tree into a board.
> Mathias :
> I like it, it's like in Japanese and in my TUNU language. So the subject of *abeded* is the patient ? How do you say *he fights and get wounded ?*, *I give him a gift, which makes him happy* ?

Yeah.oL fet (fe) oL wended (he fights, getting wounded)
(wend - to be wounded, -ed = to change to)
aL sfed usfuad ioL heped (i give a gift to him, making him happy)

> Garrett :
> Well, cmed = to sell and zed = to own, so:aL cmeduc uoLas ioLes azed (i sold it to her, making her own it)
> aL ioLas acmued (i make it be sold)
> They don't have the same meaning i suppose, like DEL, because: aL ioLas acmued uoLes (i make it be sold by her [i make her sell it])
> Mathias :
> Not exactly. In DEL you have :
> to buy (active).
> to sell (antipassive) = *it sells well* in English.
> to make him buy (active causative).
> to make it sell (antipassive factitive) = *to sell it* in English.
> *To make her sell it* takes another auxiliary.
> Mathias

Oh, the antipassive that you're talking about is what i think Rick morneau called 'middle voice'. That's where the subject is de-topicized and made unable to be expressed. Another example: "the mouse kills easily". For examples one and three above, in malat the first verb would be between agent and patient (as the action), and in the third the verb would be after the patient (the result of whatever action I performed). Same with 2 and 4.
--
-Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

-Garrett Jones aka Alkaline
Rising Sun - C&C2: Tiberian Sun - http://www.cnc2.com/
Malat - http://www.metro.net/3jones/malat/

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