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AUXLANG  December 1998, Week 3

AUXLANG December 1998, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Occidental un lingue garantisantmen mort

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:28:12 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (203 lines)

Je 11:02 AM 12/16/98 -0700, Robert J. Petry skribis:
 
>Don HARLOW wrote:
>
>> Bob PETRY skribis:
>>
>> > Don HARLOW wrote:
>> >
>> > > [kut]
>> > >
>> > > Assuming that what Emerson wrote is a more-or-less accurate rendition
>> > > of what's written on the page in question, the person who wrote it
>> > > was (a) ignorant, (b) disingenuous or (c) (something else a bit
>> > > stronger).
>> >
>> > It's dangerous to be an "assumer". Sometimes the "assumptions" we
propound as
>> > fact are actually wrong.
>> >
>> (1) Which is why you should always specify your assumptions, as I
>> did...
>>
>
>It's safer not to assume. And, it is more inaccurate than accurate.
 
I have to shove my oar in again here:
 
It's _impossible_ not to make assumptions.  It's extremely difficult (or
perhaps let's just say "impossible") to list all of one's assumptions, but
the effort is useful -- may lead to a better understanding of the
question(s) and/or correction of incorrect assumptions.  Much of the work
in mathematics has come about by mathematicions being more and more precise
about their assumptions.
 
>> (2) And are we to suppose from this that what Emerson wrote is _not_
>> more-or-less accurate?
 
It looked more-or-less accurate to me, having recently browsed through
those pages.
 
>It is inaccurate until he clarifies what he meant as I ask below. And,
it's not
>always safe to suppose either. I would just suggest the proper thing to do
is to
>check for onesself and make sure.
 
Done.
 
>And, I would also suggest a rereading of Emerson's post about squiggly
things. He
>was referring to another site, not mine at that point.
 
Yes, but I believe that he clearly specified where he went to your site.
(I think the squiggles Emerson refered to on the other site were Hebrew --
one of those languages I intend to work on, someday.)
 
>Then he goes to my page and
>begins to criticise the Esperanto article there. So, it doesn't pay to
assume. And,
>if he did not mean it the way he wrote the post about the squiggly signs
on the
>first page then he should explain what he means about them and where he
found them.
>Now, so you don't have to assume that I am making this up, here is the
full copy of
>his post.
 
I think you're getting away from the point here, Bob.  The question that I
heard Don ask (I may of course have misheard) referred specifically to the
reference to "not being able to find  Esperanto fonts".  So that would be
your "Esperantistoj" page.
 
>>"Re: Occidental un lingue garantisantmen mort
>> By emerson alcott @ICONTECH.COM
>>                                                    Sunday
>>                                             December 13, 1998
>>                                                05:49 PM PST
...
[Skipping down to the part that refers to your site]
 
>>However, I did go to
>>http://interlingue.webjump.com and found some interesting things.
>>    First, I followed the link "Esperantistoj" to a page in Esperanto
declaring
>>the merits of Interlingue. I was only mildly surprised to see that the first
>>paragraph mentioned how they (the interlingue-ists) were 'sorry' they
couldn't
>>find a font to accomodate the supersigns 'anywhere' and that 'unfortunately'
>>we'd just have to do without them. Well, Interlingue must be associated with
>>blindness as well, because I don't see how they could've missed the numerous
>>fonts that are currently available.
>
>[Well, those fonts weren't available when the article was written, it is
still a
>problem today, so there is no real mistake in this article about
Esperanto, and is
>a poor attempt to defend a known problem as if it doesn't still exist.
Please read
>the archives about this subject of Esperanto fonts and the problems they
still
>cause this very day, and I was not even a part of those discussions. Bob]
 
Many misunderstandings could be averted, Bob, if you would give the source
of these articles which you are putting online.  There is no indication on
the page that you are quoting anyone, your copyright is at the top, your
address is at the bottom, and in the middle is your address, email address,
and an invitation to subscribe to the reincarnation of Cosmoglotta.  Anyone
would think you had written it in 1998 (the copyright date).
 
In parentheses before the article itself I read:
 
>(Malgrau niaj sercoj, ni ne povis trovi la supersignatajn literojn ec en
unu el la
>plej grandaj presejoj de Europo. Kun bedauro ni do devis presi li
sekvantan tekston
>sen supersignoj. Kaj nun, oni povas demandi sin cu la Esperantistoj estas
pravaj
>kiam ili obstinas trudi al mondo lingvon el kiu oni ne povas montri rektan
tekston
>en la jurnaloj! La rimedo del "h" rekomendita de Dro Zamenhof kripligas
netolereble
>la aspekton.)
 
Even if I _assumed_ (which I didn't) that the article itself was from some
back issue of K/Cosmoglotta, the parenthetical note is an editorial comment
and you are the only candidate for editor or author given.  And let's face
it, one doesn't have to search far nowadays for free Latin-3 and Unicode
fonts on the web, so if this were written today it would be inaccurate and
misleading.  Doesn't seem that Esperantists back in the 20s (or whenever
the article was written) had trouble with printing Esperanto either.  Funny
how certain opponents of the language like to blow things out of
proportion, isn't it?  ;-)
 
>I guess it's just convenience.
>    Secondly, although I didn't read thru the entire propaganda page, I did
>notice they used the word 'existas', which obviously does _not_ exist
>in Esperanto. I wonder if this was a mistake, or just a
>convenience. Anyway, see for yourself, the link's above.
>
>[Great Big deal, fonts and one mispelled word.
 
Sorry, Bob, it's not one mispelled word.  As I mentioned previously there
are _many_ mistakes.
 
The mistakes don't really bother me -- just put in "This article was
originally printed in _____ (issue ____), on _____  __, 19__"  Then no-one
will try to get you to fix it.  But when people think it's the
latest-up-to-the-minute information, they expect you to have done some
research, and to avoid at least the most obvious errors and incorrect
information.
 
What _does_ bother me is when I or someone else points out a mistake, you
don't say
 
(1) "Ok, I (or an expert on the subject) will look it over and see if this
should be changed",
or
(2) "This is a historical quote, I can't change it, but I can footnote any
questionable points",
or
(3) "Sorry, I just don't have the time to look at this right now".
 
Instead, you say "Great Big deal", it doesn't matter, and besides, it's
true, or it's not as bad as what X said to Y.
 
I find that just an teensy weensy bit offensive.
 
>And, how would putting in an X for KZ be a convenience?
 
It's not, it's simply an error.  Using the word "convenience" Emerson was
referring back to a previous post, but the joke falls flat unless you go
back to the archives and find the message referred to.  Anyway, it's simply
an error, not a big deal, merely indicative of the many others in the article.
 
>So, where is the inaccuracy in the article content about Esperanto?
 
Well, keep copies of the things already mentioned, maybe someone with more
time will add to the list.  But I do think you need to (a) hire an expert
(you might advertise on soc.culture.esperanto) or (b) get a dedicated
Occidentalist who is also fluent in Esperanto to do it for free.
 
>And, as I asked Ken, what is it there that causes an Esperantist not to
>be able to understand what is being said.
 
And as I answered, I understood it.  And I said to myself, take this with a
grain (or many grains) of salt:  this person doesn't have enough knowledge
of Esperanto to have a valid opinion comparing it to Occidental.  Shrug.
 
>Esperanto can't be read by
>non-Esperantists so Esperantists don't have to be worried about being ill
spoken of
>to the world in their own language since the world can't read it. This
nonsense
>about "fonts" and the letter "x" does no damage at all to the article's
content. In
>fact, this kind of arguing only substantiates Occidental's tenet more.]
 
That was the whole idea of putting it in, most likely.
 
G`is poste!
 
Ken

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June 2001, Week 5
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February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
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November 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
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September 2000, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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